Sourcing a part (SMC) and not having to pay my liver..!!

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Wife, Larry can’t do much with his arms and hands awaiting spine surgery.
He asked me to comment because this post is giving him fits….probably the steroids.
I just made my wife read your post to me, LOL.
Yes, we love these bikes, this site and also our wifes.
Said to my wife, if Larry's wife does it for him, you'll have to do it for me when I'm down and out.
Thanks for making Larry's day and dictating all of Larrys thought to us.
Cheers and to both of you and your health
 
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@The Dark Shadow, I just read your whole other post describing your travails with the two shops in your area. Were I in your shoes, I'd sell the ST and either buy a new bike from a dealer with a great reputation for service, or a Miata.

You got a tremendous amount of good advice and suggestions on what to do in the last thread, but beyond the one shop that was interested in what we had to say, you resisted many of the helpful suggestions that tried to impart kowledge to you. These bikes are no longer supported by Honda. They are out of production and even the youngest of them is now around 6 years old and out of warranty. They need TLC and regular maintenance. Without passionate interest in this model and the ability to maintain it yourself, or a dedicated mechanic on your staff (like Jay Leno has) you are SOL with this bike.

I suggested the Miata because they are economical, fun to drive, have a rep for reliability like Toyotas and Hondas and are not pricey like a Porsche or Beemer*. However, you should still go new.

Guitars? Too bad you live so far away. Many years ago I stumbled on an estate sale. The deceased was a local guitar maker and I bought up his entire stock of veneers. I've used only a little bit of it on a piece of cherry furniture and I'll probably die with the stuff. I'd gladly sell the stuff to you. You can only make so many rosewood book marks......

*The 911's have a rep for reliability, the BMW's not so much.
 

DavidR8

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OK, this might be a crap shoot. HONDA OEM Motorcycle parts: BRACKET SUB-ASSY., L.FR. 06454-MCS-R02 $111.03 Including freight.
This part number is listed as for a 2010 ST1300.
I bit the bullet and ordered one as mine has been rebuilt by the local Honda Power Sports dealer.
The bike was still under the factory extended warranty.
https://Japan.webike.net/products/24655812.html Do a Google search.
http://japan.webike.net/

Order Date:
08/30/2023
Total Amount:
16,260 JPY
Ship to:
David Fyffe



Order Number: g00000366956
Order detail
Waiting for Warehousing (Estimated Date of Shipment: 09/21/2023)

HONDA OEM PARTS Part Number: 06454MCSR02 13,560 JPY
Any idea what the differences are between pre and post 2010 versions as the one for my 2005 is p/n# 06454-MCS-G03.

Mind you the .jp site has the one for my year for only $112 USD which is crazy cheap.
 
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I can't speak for sure about the changes made in those particular years. But,, I do know that the piston and return spring were redesigned in the smc. At exactly what year that was done,, I do not know. But, when I replaced my '04's smc, the new smc came with the updated piston. So,, the newer smc's should be downward compatable, with earlier bikes. The new spring looked stronger,, and the new piston looked less prone to jamming. My updated smc is performing well now,, 3-4 seasons on. It's due for an inspection though.

I recall that I did buy the replacement in the states,, then picked it up on one of my trips. That was for a cost savings. Can't recall the numbers now.

It's a shame that Honda, and the Transportation authorities didn't require a recall on the ST1300 linked brake system,,, as they did on the Goldwings. Of course,, it is far, far too late for such a measure now. CAt'
ps: I think there are pictures of it all in the rebuild article. Of course,, we don't recommend rebuilding the smc,,, in favor of replacement.

 
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OP
OP
The Dark Shadow
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@The Dark Shadow, I just read your whole other post describing your travails with the two shops in your area. Were I in your shoes, I'd sell the ST and either buy a new bike from a dealer with a great reputation for service, or a Miata.

You got a tremendous amount of good advice and suggestions on what to do in the last thread, but beyond the one shop that was interested in what we had to say, you resisted many of the helpful suggestions that tried to impart kowledge to you. These bikes are no longer supported by Honda. They are out of production and even the youngest of them is now around 6 years old and out of warranty. They need TLC and regular maintenance. Without passionate interest in this model and the ability to maintain it yourself, or a dedicated mechanic on your staff (like Jay Leno has) you are SOL with this bike.

I suggested the Miata because they are economical, fun to drive, have a rep for reliability like Toyotas and Hondas and are not pricey like a Porsche or Beemer*. However, you should still go new.

Guitars? Too bad you live so far away. Many years ago I stumbled on an estate sale. The deceased was a local guitar maker and I bought up his entire stock of veneers. I've used only a little bit of it on a piece of cherry furniture and I'll probably die with the stuff. I'd gladly sell the stuff to you. You can only make so many rosewood book marks......

*The 911's have a rep for reliability, the BMW's not so much.
I received the advice and have shared the wealth of information that I received with Garrie Cook (Cook's Classic Rebuilds). Do not mistake my incapacity for doing work on my bike as resistance to advice.

I WILL resist advice such as, "Only backyard mechanics should buy this motorcycle model." I WILL resist advice such as, "Buy a Miata!" (I won't even dignify that "advice" with arguments why it was a foolish thing to state.)

There were 2 diagnostic procedures shared that I will use when I bring it to Garrie next (I'll have to review the threads). Several people report EBC brake pads are fine, but several others report this as a KNOWN problem. Hence, I am ACCEPTING rather than RESISTING advice by planning to change the EBC pads to OEM pads on the back... Then I'll see about the performance, and take it to the next step as necessary.

Since the brake fluid has been changed, the brakes seem to have improved. SMC was reported as working as expected (as tested by Garrie based upon the pages upon pages of information that he gladly read and did NOT charge me time for). Sure, once the back brake pads are changed to OEM, if they are still binding, then I'll fork out my liver for a new SMC and have him change that. If the back brake is still binding, then I will assume that the SMC isn't "draining" once released, and is holding back brake hydraulic pressure as per the advice and information shared.

Let me ask you this question...

If you had a new to you ST1300 with slight brake problems, would you immediately change the SMC or would you update worn pads and bleed/refresh the fluid before making a decision to replace the SMC...??

BTW, FWIW a summary of what pi$$3s me off...

1) the 3 (perhaps 4) workers at local shop "A" who dismissed my brake issues as "normal" even when I tried to share info with them. (I have a history in this part of the world of hiring "professionals" to do tasks who botch the jobs from medium to large, and I've lost 10s of thousands out of pocket, and I've lost a hundred thousand dollars income due to crappy professionals... So this unstated sub-text overflows in some of my posts. I'm not going to apologize for being in a location where it is the butt-end of the earth with lousy quality professionals.)
2) the fact that this linked braking design seems to be so delicate that the bike, if used as normal, will likely/possibly have the SMC fail. This I attribute to the fact that designing engineers often (usually??) sit in front of a computer and design on digital media. In cases where engineering teams are integrated with repair and usage teams, results will necessarily be consistently better.
3) Useless and non-helpful comments like, "It's easy!! Just get the tools and learn how to do it!" without a knowledge of my limitations to capacity. "Guitar building is easy!! Guitarists should just build and maintain their own guitars!" is NOT a helpful comment for a guitarist who has a fret buzzing issue and just wants to play the GD guitar!
4) Non sequitur comments like, "I recommend you buy a Miata."

I can dislike the items in the above list, and I can thankfully accept and not resist people's advice, and I can reject non-sequitur comments, and I can love the st1300 at the same time.

With respect,

TDS
 
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OP
OP
The Dark Shadow
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OK, this might be a crap shoot. HONDA OEM Motorcycle parts: BRACKET SUB-ASSY., L.FR. 06454-MCS-R02 $111.03 Including freight.
This part number is listed as for a 2010 ST1300.
I bit the bullet and ordered one as mine has been rebuilt by the local Honda Power Sports dealer.
The bike was still under the factory extended warranty.
https://Japan.webike.net/products/24655812.html Do a Google search.
http://japan.webike.net/
Thanks for this!! Same part number!! This is gold! (Might order 2... Still cheaper than 1 here!!)

ADDITION: Yup, just ordered 2!! Thanks again. 2 cheaper than 1... One spare for the future!! Awesome!!! Gold!!! I'm sending you a mental virtual beer for thanks!!
 
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Sadlsor

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I had to replace my SMC not long after I bought my low-mileage 2008 some 3 or 4 years ago (time gets away...)
I ordered the -R02 from Ron Ayers, but they sent the -R03 part number, because the newer part supersedes the "old" SMC part number.
Same but "better", or whatever.
 
OP
OP
The Dark Shadow
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I had to replace my SMC not long after I bought my low-mileage 2008 some 3 or 4 years ago (time gets away...)
I ordered the -R02 from Ron Ayers, but they sent the -R03 part number, because the newer part supersedes the "old" SMC part number.
Same but "better", or whatever.
Thankfully accepting of David Fyffe's info above, I ordered 2 replacement SMC's... Hopefully this gets me a few years out of the bike! lol

And thanks for your input you've been sharing with me, too, Sadlsor! Appreciated.
 

Sadlsor

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And here's something I just learned a couple weeks ago when I re-listened to the Adventure Rider Radio podcast, where Jim Martin and Canadian Clinton Smouts (rider trainer) discussed avoiding obstacles...
Seems when Honda first released the GoldWing (1975?), and as it evolved, Honda dealers reported to the factory that they were replacing rear brake pads at greater than 3:1 over front brake pads when the bikes were brought in for service. The obvious takeaway? Most riders were using their REAR brakes almost exclusively. This was conjectured to be due to kids on bicycles being taught "don't use the front brake! you'll go over the handlebars!" Where have we heard that before...?
This continued through several more years, even after the 'Wings incorporated dual-disks up front.
So Honda engineers designed the linked brake system for the GoldWing and later incorporated LBS on the VFR, and then again on the Blackbird / CBR1100XX (what a lovely bike that was to ride!!). This was to "share" stopping power with the front binders, with the added benefit of reduced front-end dive in heavy braking, but as we know, applying only the rear brake also sends hydraulic fluid to the LEFT front caliper.
So then what do you think happened?
Dealer service departments found they then were noticing they were still replacing more rear brake pads (same braking habits - back brake only) than fronts, ...BUT also the left front pads were still worn significantly more than the right front pads.
Moral of the story?
You can build things to be better and more idiot-proof, but the world continues to create smarter idiots.
 
Joined
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...Non sequitur comments like, "I recommend you buy a Miata."

...sequitur for many who have been around this site for a while.

Even our Joe "The Boss" @Mellow is into them.

 

drrod

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) the fact that this linked braking design seems to be so delicate that the bike, if used as normal, will likely/possibly have the SMC fail. This I attribute to the fact that designing engineers often (usually??) sit in front of a computer and design on digital media. In cases where engineering teams are integrated with repair and usage teams, results will necessarily be consistently better.
I have own(ed) 3 Hondas with linked brake systems.
One ST went 250K kms in 10 years without an issue with the SMC. Flushed and bled the system 2X during that time.
Second ST - 58Kms on it when I picked it up. SMC seized on the ride home from picking it up (it was 10 yrs old. I don't know the brake maintenance history before I bought it). Replaced the SMC. All good since with now over 200k kms on it.
Blackbird - 24 yr old. Only 50k kms on it. Original SMC. Flushed and bled on about a 5 yr cycle. No issues (after saying that, the next time I ride, it will probably go south!) Bikes are stored in a non heated parkade.

The SMC/linked brake issue is not common across the board. Just my SWAG, but I think the climate where the bike exists plays a role (moisture leading to corrosion?) . I live in a relatively dry climate. Impossible to tell, but one wonders what the rate of SMC failure is on all Hondas with linked brakes. We only really hear about the failures, not about the ones that don't.

The system works as intended but does require routine maintenance, like most other systems in a vehicle. It is not difficult to maintain but does require a bit of knowledge and a few tools. If you can find a mechanic, that you trust, that can do it, great. If you can't, then you will have to decide how to proceed.

Personally, I have used EBC pads for a long time with no issues. Maybe I am just lucky.

I hope the SMC and pad replacement solves your issue. It is a great bike.
 
OP
OP
The Dark Shadow
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And here's something I just learned a couple weeks ago when I re-listened to the Adventure Rider Radio podcast, where Jim Martin and Canadian Clinton Smouts (rider trainer) discussed avoiding obstacles...
Seems when Honda first released the GoldWing (1975?), and as it evolved, Honda dealers reported to the factory that they were replacing rear brake pads at greater than 3:1 over front brake pads when the bikes were brought in for service. The obvious takeaway? Most riders were using their REAR brakes almost exclusively. This was conjectured to be due to kids on bicycles being taught "don't use the front brake! you'll go over the handlebars!" Where have we heard that before...?
This continued through several more years, even after the 'Wings incorporated dual-disks up front.
So Honda engineers designed the linked brake system for the GoldWing and later incorporated LBS on the VFR, and then again on the Blackbird / CBR1100XX (what a lovely bike that was to ride!!). This was to "share" stopping power with the front binders, with the added benefit of reduced front-end dive in heavy braking, but as we know, applying only the rear brake also sends hydraulic fluid to the LEFT front caliper.
So then what do you think happened?
Dealer service departments found they then were noticing they were still replacing more rear brake pads (same braking habits - back brake only) than fronts, ...BUT also the left front pads were still worn significantly more than the right front pads.
Moral of the story?
You can build things to be better and more idiot-proof, but the world continues to create smarter idiots.
This is an interesting tidbit, and it fits in perfectly with the story! So, another way of looking at this info is, the engineers tried to engineer poor human usage of tools (ie: brakes) by making a system that would supercede riders' poor use of brakes. And hence, modifying the brakes to be conventional front-full and back-full non-linked brakes could be a good solution for people who know and use their brakes properly in combination...

In the guitar world, I am a fret-work expert. People used to use triangle files on the edges of frets to round them after a fret-levelling operation. But then someone thought, what if we make a concave file...? That'll make it easier, right...?? But I (and a few other true artisans) still use the triangle file, because it gives more control and in fact allows for better quality results. The concave file is more consistent for people with poor to mediocre artisanry skills, whereas the triangle file allows for peak performance by true masters.

I wonder if this file analogy could not be equally applied to these linked braking systems...??

Speaking of guitar frets, I gotta go work on a Fender Strat neck now...

Cheers! And thanks for sharing this info.
 
OP
OP
The Dark Shadow
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I have own(ed) 3 Hondas with linked brake systems.
One ST went 250K kms in 10 years without an issue with the SMC. Flushed and bled the system 2X during that time.
Second ST - 58Kms on it when I picked it up. SMC seized on the ride home from picking it up (it was 10 yrs old. I don't know the brake maintenance history before I bought it). Replaced the SMC. All good since with now over 200k kms on it.
Blackbird - 24 yr old. Only 50k kms on it. Original SMC. Flushed and bled on about a 5 yr cycle. No issues (after saying that, the next time I ride, it will probably go south!) Bikes are stored in a non heated parkade.

The SMC/linked brake issue is not common across the board. Just my SWAG, but I think the climate where the bike exists plays a role (moisture leading to corrosion?) . I live in a relatively dry climate. Impossible to tell, but one wonders what the rate of SMC failure is on all Hondas with linked brakes. We only really hear about the failures, not about the ones that don't.

The system works as intended but does require routine maintenance, like most other systems in a vehicle. It is not difficult to maintain but does require a bit of knowledge and a few tools. If you can find a mechanic, that you trust, that can do it, great. If you can't, then you will have to decide how to proceed.

Personally, I have used EBC pads for a long time with no issues. Maybe I am just lucky.

I hope the SMC and pad replacement solves your issue. It is a great bike.
Thanks for your input, DrRod! My bike came from Calgary, in fact...
 

Andrew Shadow

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planning to change the EBC pads to OEM pads on the back... Then I'll see about the performance, and take it to the next step as necessary.
Make sure to put a few hundred KM on the new pads, if they are not dragging or binding to the point of being a problem of course. New pads will often result in higher resistance to wheel rotation for a short period until the new pads break-in and seat with the discs.
if they are still binding, then I'll fork out my liver for a new SMC and have him change that.
This is not part of the service manual procedure for replacing an SMC as far as I recall, but when I replace an SMC I flush the hydraulic system before replacing the SMC unless this had been done fairly recently. I see no logic in replacing the SMC and then flushing any crap that might be in the system in to the new SMC and potentially clogging it up. After replacing it, it will still need a full bleed procedure.
would you immediately change the SMC or would you update worn pads and bleed/refresh the fluid before making a decision to replace the SMC...??
That would depend entirely on the results of the inspections and tests that I would have performed. If my diagnosis lead me to the conclusion that the fault was with the SMC I would have no qualms about replacing it without doing any other maintenance other than inspections and tests. This is why I replied to you previously that it is difficult for us to diagnose your particular issue conclusively without being there. I, and I am sure many others on this site, are confident that your problem is the SMC. However, I am not willing to state this unequivocally simply because I was not there to either perform the tests and inspections or witness them being done, so I don't know what was done and what the results were. Trying to diagnose something from a distance is difficult. We are trying to help you resolve this the best that we can but, not being there, we don't know what is really being done and what the results of those efforts are.
2) the fact that this linked braking design seems to be so delicate that the bike, if used as normal, will likely/possibly have the SMC fail. This I attribute to the fact that designing engineers often (usually??) sit in front of a computer and design on digital media. In cases where engineering teams are integrated with repair and usage teams, results will necessarily be consistently better.
In my opinion the ST1300 braking system isn't delicate, but rather I find it to be rather robust and very effective. It hauls a very heavy motorcycle down to a stop very quickly and in a very sure-footed and predictable manner with no surprises.

What it is very intolerant of is lack of maintenance, or improper maintenance, and I have to agree that it reacts more poorly to either of those than other braking systems. However, that is not a design fault, but an operator error. You purchased this motorcycle used. It is possible that the hydraulic system was never flushed since it was new until you had it done as part of trying to diagnose this issue, or possible was done at very long intervals. If it was done, maybe it wasn't done correctly. This is common because often people/shops unfamiliar with SMC equipped braking systems will perform a flush and bleed the same way that they do on every other motorcycle, they don't follow the procedure in the service manual for this motorcycle. If the brake hydraulic system is flushed in accordance with the service manual recommendations and at the intervals called for there are far fewer problems including with the SMC. As an example, my ST1300 is a 2009 that I bought new in 2012. It still has the original SMC on it and it shows no signs of any problems to date. I have no idea if that is uncommon and I have been lucky or if that is common when the required maintenance is performed properly and at the intervals when it is supposed to be. If the SMC crapped out tomorrow it would have been in service for 14 years in an environment that is very hostile to anything hydraulic. I would not find having to replace it after 14 years to upsetting.
 

Mellow

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...sequitur for many who have been around this site for a while.

Even our Joe "The Boss" @Mellow is into them.

No longer have that one... the used Miata prices finally spiked and I decided to sell it and actually make a small profit... still loved the car but I had to move it everytime I wanted to take the bike out and it was taking up too much garage space.
 
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ordered the -R02 from Ron Ayers, but they sent the -R03 part number
Honda will always ship the latest version. Older versions are generally sold off at discount by dealers as NOS (new old stock) on Ebay at bargains. These are often good value for items such as brake pads. But when it comes to the smc,, I would prefer the latest and greatest.

This is all reminding me that my 2012 is likely on it's original smc,,, so like it is over 10 years old. I will add it to the winter upgrades list. CAt'
 

ST Gui

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This thread has been driving my poor husband nuts...
Who ARE you...?
Yeah I got that. The line Who ARE you and what did you do with the real _______ ? is a comedic device usually spoken to someone who's just made some statement or committed some action that is far out of character for that person. It's often deemed a more desirable/reasonable statement or action than would customarily be expected. It expresses incredulity or surprise at that statement or action on the part of the listener.

We all know it wasn't Larry by the timbre alone in the first post. The three references to it not being him were icing. Since the post was made under Igofar I thought it might be amusing to adapt the device to his wife's wholly diplomatic translation. I hope this clears up any confusion.
 
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