ST1100 ABS or no ABS

[mpr128]

I'm the lucky owner of two ST1100s

1998 ST1100 in immaculate condition and good maintenance history. 100,000km but no ABS or TCS
2001 ST1100 ex UK, 200,000km, no maintenance history. Factory ABS & TCS

I can only keep one, not both.
Which one should I sell ?

I'm not a highly experienced rider and so favour the ABS & TCS for extra safety.
But discussion with the Honda service manager today (I dropped off the newer ST1100 to get new tyres, fluids & filters) and he suggested that the ABS was a risk as the control module is a very expensive replacement and the ABS wasn't that good being such an old design.

I generally don't ride in the rain or on gravel, but may do so if the ABS & TCS provides a significant benefit.

cheers, Shane
New Zealand

 

[kiltman]

The ABS system on the ST1100 is one of the most sophisticated designs. It has better braking power, due to using three pucks per caliber instead of the two on the standard, also it has a linked braking system. Meaning, when you apply the front brake it also activates the rear brake by 40% and vice versa. I’ve never had the ABS system activate but the TCS has, not super fond of that. (Wet grass, early morning takeoff). I haven’t heard of pump system failures, but rear and front sensor failures. The sensors are expensive. Happy Bikes in the UK sell an aftermarket that is of good value. I think if you change the brake fluid every two years as outlined by the manufacturer you will prolong the life of the pumps. The front fork has bigger tubes and it supports a wider tire, a 120 instead of a 110. Overall, all parts are interchangeable except the brakes and forks and rims(ABS tooth ring). The front fender is a two piece affair and hard to get replacements.
I have a 97 ABS/TCS Gen II. I like it a lot. Replaced the rear sensor and had to do some cosmetic work on the front fender tabs. I do like the better stopping power.

 

[fnmag]

I'm the lucky owner of two ST1100s

1998 ST1100 in immaculate condition and good maintenance history. 100,000km but no ABS or TCS
2001 ST1100 ex UK, 200,000km, no maintenance history. Factory ABS & TCS

I can only keep one, not both.
Which one should I sell ?

I'm not a highly experienced rider and so favour the ABS & TCS for extra safety.
But discussion with the Honda service manager today (I dropped off the newer ST1100 to get new tyres, fluids & filters) and he suggested that the ABS was a risk as the control module is a very expensive replacement and the ABS wasn't that good being such an old design.

I generally don't ride in the rain or on gravel, but may do so if the ABS & TCS provides a significant benefit.

cheers, Shane
New Zealand

Welcome to the forum Shane.
Tough decision, good luck with your choice.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Shane - Welcome - North Island or South Island?

Uncle Phil - New Zealand 2014

I own 3 ST1100s - 2 ABSII and 1 standard. Assuming the ABS bike does not have other issues, keep the ABSII model as the braking power (without the ABS) is far superior as Robert said. (If the bike is a UK model, check the rear swing arm as they get eaten up from the road salt they use in the winter). The manager's advice is 'suspect' to me as my two ABSII ST1100s have well over 100,000 miles on them with no issues and the ABS system works very well. In fact, I don't recall anyone mentioning an 'ABS Computer Failure' for a ST1100 since I got my first one in 1997. And you can probably find used computers on eBay without much trouble if you did need one. I am in the process of changing the front end of my standard to the ABS model (not the ABS system) to get the better braking. Also the front tire of the ABSII models is the same size as the ST1300 which gives you more choices for tire selection. If the bikes happen to be the same color and the body work on the standard is in better shape, you could swap that (except for the front fender).

 

[kiltman]

There have been instances of the first generation ABS pump failure, bikes manufactured pre 1996. The other subtle change is, the rear shock is a heavier duty than the standard, but the aftermarkets fit and work with both models, the overflow coolant reservoirs are located in different locations (doesn't affect bodywork).

 

[Jim Van]

How much longer are you planning on keeping the single bike ?

As far as failure of the ABS system, I think there was a thread recently on a how-to on doing a repair to the ABS valve.

 

[Bush]

I can only keep one, not both.
Which one should I sell ?

The '98 has half the mileage of the '01. Score 1 for the '98.

You have good maintenance records for the '98, none for the '01. Score 2 for the '98. The '01 is overdue for a timing belt change, but you have no idea if it has been done. There's a few hundred $$$ for that, or risk severe engine damage.

ABS is nice, but I have never found the braking on my non ABS to be lacking and if the choice was mine, I'd keep the '98.

You said - "I'm not a highly experienced rider and so favour the ABS & TCS for extra safety."

If available in your area, consider taking an "experienced rider course", which is designed to give a rider with previous m/c experience a chance to become very familiar with their bike's potential in braking, accelerating and cornering in a safe environment.

Or go out to a vacant parking lot and get a feel for the brakes on the non ABS - when they are working at maximum without locking up. On a non ABS bike, you will hear a howling noise from a tire just before it locks and the rear will lock a lot earlier than the front, on a dry road.

 

[Upt' North]

I'm with Bush on this, the 98 by all accounts is the one to keep. The brakes don't lock easy on these heavy lumps and you state that you ride in the dry pretty much. The service manager is spot on too. You can be sure of four things in life Shane,

1. Taxes
2. If you keep the ABS, the ABS will break
3. If you keep the 98 you will have an off where the ABS would have saved you

4.Sods law.
Upt'North.

 

[Ron]

I have put many miles on the ABS II (1996 and up) bikes. It is seamless and often times you won't realize it has come into play. I would change the brake fluid every 15,000 miles (20-25 KM) and not worry. I don't know anyone that has a ABS computer failure. The ABS pump has been mentioned a few times. My '96 ST1100 ABS system is so far superior to the '02 BMW F650 that I laugh at any BMW claim to superiority in the bike lines. Not only can you feel the pump but you can hear it.

If you decide to keep the non-ABS model, consider changing the front master cylinder to an ABS font master cylinder.

 

[mpr128]

Shane - Welcome - North Island or South Island?

Near Hamilton. Often riding to Auckland for work (up there this Friday)

 

[red one]

I would not let a lack of ABS/ Traction control stop me from keeping the lower mileage immaculate bike. P.S been riding a non abs for 19 years. Trust me a good non abs ST1100 is no problem.

 

[Bikeric]

I don't have ABS and ride in all weathers all year. If you ride according to the conditions, you will be fine on the non-ABS. Just something else to go wrong IMHO. Welcome to the forum from Cornwall!

 

[kiltman]

Bush puts forth some good talking points in this discussion....and Upt'North does too. You have at least a season of riding on the 98 to do before having to change the belt (possibly two) that can differ the the cost for a bit. If you get a shop to deal with a timing belt the shop time is 2.5 hours add another hour to remove the Tupperware. You may have some other costs to deal with on both bikes to get them on the road, tires, brake pads fork seals. If the records don't show a clutch, brake and radiator flush in the past two years that would be recommended too. Some owners have opted to replace the standard brake lines with braided ones, there is marginal improvement to brake feel when this mod is done, in my mind worth pursuing (another topic of discussion). Kits are available for the standard model, the ABS ones are very expensive as there are double the lines due to linked braking.
I've owned two ST1100s, my first being a 1990 a standard and currently a 97 ABS/TCS. My good friend has the 1990 now and he has installed the braided lines. I noticed the improvement. We spent the day swapping bikes, and both of us concur that the 97 does stop better. I've owned the 97 for 3.5 years and have had to diagnose the ABS system a few times, as a result had to replace the rear sensor as I mentioned in a previous post. I have 185K kms on the 97 the 90 has 195K kms. The bikes are built to last.
Good luck in making your decision

 

[mpr128]

The '98 has not had a timing belt done and apparently has 50,000 km to go (when it hits 150,000km) before it needs doing. Previous owner was a mechanic so all fluids etc are well maintained.
The '01 apparently had the timing belt done 18 months ago. It's had the Honda dealer now getting all fluids replaced, swing arm inspected, new tyres and inspect timing belt.
Looking on eBay it appears there are plenty of ABS parts available and it sounds like ABS failures are not commonplace.
Someone mentioned their ABS failed so they removed it. I've ridden a bike like that here in New Zealand. To remain legal and pass the safety inspection all ABS components have to be removed and there must be no sign that the bike could possibly have ABS in order to pass the safety inspection. Honda charged about $NZ2000 for this work on the bike I rode, including new certification for the modified bike.

 

[sirbike]

I've had standard and ABS-TCS II.
ABS-TCS II system break down less than the first version. I've seen a number of early models advertised for sale with failure, sold pumps to replace failed units and posts about them here, but can't recall a later version failed.
ABS II takes less lever pressure to stop.
The middle pucks are more prone to problems if they get corrosion and just pushed back in for new pads as there is very little distance between the dust seal and the fluid seal.
ABS is harder to bleed after caliper rebuild.
I think the reliability is good and the maintenance is buyers discretion. If you can do the work, I'd push for ABS. ABS model for front tire selection as well.

Given these two bikes though I'd go for the 98. Low mileage, known history, lower potential costs, simpler braking system, less miles equals chance someone has messed something up.
As said braided lines will improve braking. The lever force needed will still be higher than the ABS model. Braided lines will improve the feel and response esp. for threshold braking.
I did put an ABS front wheel on my standard, that tire size felt more stable and rode more like new longer.

 

[Bush]

The '98 has not had a timing belt done and apparently has 50,000 km to go (when it hits 150,000km) before it needs doing. Previous owner was a mechanic so all fluids etc are well maintained.
The '01 apparently had the timing belt done 18 months ago. It's had the Honda dealer now getting all fluids replaced, swing arm inspected, new tyres and inspect timing belt.
Looking on eBay it appears there are plenty of ABS parts available and it sounds like ABS failures are not commonplace.
Someone mentioned their ABS failed so they removed it. I've ridden a bike like that here in New Zealand. To remain legal and pass the safety inspection all ABS components have to be removed and there must be no sign that the bike could possibly have ABS in order to pass the safety inspection. Honda charged about $NZ2000 for this work on the bike I rode, including new certification for the modified bike.

Just based on the mileage of the two and despite new info about the belt being changed on the '01, I would still go with the '98. Other things to consider on the high mileage '01 are:

Have the wheel bearings ever been changed? Asking them to go more than 100,000 miles, or 160,000km, is foolish economy. What shape are the rear splines in on the '01? Have they been properly maintained with the correct lube, as I would assume the mechanic owner did with the '98. Is the rear shock still OEM on the '01? If not, it is well past the life expectancy of a normal OEM shock. Have the fork springs ever been replaced on the '01? If not, they won't be giving their best performance after 200,000 km. Then there's the cooling system. Have the hoses, particularly those in the valley of the V ever been changed on the '01? That is critical maintenance in order to prevent a hose blowing out in the middle of nowhere.

There are so many items that you don't know when they were serviced last, or serviced properly, which makes going with the '01 a bigger gamble and getting you into more expensive repairs. The '98 still has many km. to go before most of these things I mentioned need attention. Don't let your perceived allure of the ABS cause you to make a poor choice on the overall bike that is best for you.

 

[sirbike]

Or, if ABS is important, keep shopping.

 

[Moto-Charlie]

I don't doubt that ABS is a valuable safety function - you never know you need it until you do. Having said that I've been riding for 40+ years and have never had ABS on any of the 10+ bikes I've owned.

I go to Europe 2 times a year on my Alps tours. Our rental bikes there are alway current year model bikes (this year they will be 2019 BMWs, KTMs, etc) so I am always riding with the latest and greatest technology including ABS brakes. Back home I usually prefer older bikes like air-cooled Guzzis, Ducatis and other older bikes, which have generally had pretty good brakes. They weren't quite as crisp as the current year bikes in Europe, but they were fine.

My ST1100 is 1992 non-ABS. It is one of the few bikes I have owned where I felt the braking was noticeably weaker after hopping off the rental bikes. There was always a short period of adjustment to the ST1100 brakes. I really like my ST1100 - it's a great bike for its age and what is does and I want to keep it, so I started doing some research in early 2018 on how to improve the braking.

I came across a post from Jim Van on these forums, whereby he had replaced the front brake OEM master cylinder with a Brmbo unit. The pump in the Brembo unit is 12.0 mm in diameter vs 13.9 mm in the OEM unit. The smaller diameter increases the pump ratio for more pressure. Jim was pleased with the results. I contacted him for some advice about his M/C swap. He was very helpful.

Thanks to his advice I swapped out the front master cylinder. I also installed braided steel lines in the front. The improvement in braking was worth every penny and made a BIG improvement to braking performance. The feel is more linear and stronger, which gives more confidence in the braking when riding at a quicker pace similar to more modern bikes.

Sometimes I'll rent a 450lb BMW 800 on my tours, so there is still some adjustment to the 700lb ST1100 when I come home - but braking is not one of them. If I were to buy another non-ABS ST1100, swapping out the front brake master cylinder and installing steel braided lines would be the first thing I would consider doing (along with a review of the rear shock and front forks).

 

[kerbside]

Bit late for a response, but a quick story: One wet morning last fall I changed from the ABS to a non ABS ST. Going up the road had to make a quick brake due to lights or traffic. Bike did a really unpleasant tank slapper and heart rate increased a few notches. Only then did I appreciate the totally seamless function of the ABS II bike. In the dry I never give it a second thought, ABS or non ABS bike, but in the wet I now need to remember which steed I am on. 50 k on the ABS II and no issues what so ever, apart from the different disc and pad sizes that require an additional set of spares to be at hand.
Andy

 

[FlyingScot]

Shane - Welcome - North Island or South Island?

Uncle Phil - New Zealand 2014

I own 3 ST1100s - 2 ABSII and 1 standard. Assuming the ABS bike does not have other issues, keep the ABSII model as the braking power (without the ABS) is far superior as Robert said. (If the bike is a UK model, check the rear swing arm as they get eaten up from the road salt they use in the winter). The manager's advice is 'suspect' to me as my two ABSII ST1100s have well over 100,000 miles on them with no issues and the ABS system works very well. In fact, I don't recall anyone mentioning an 'ABS Computer Failure' for a ST1100 since I got my first one in 1997. And you can probably find used computers on eBay without much trouble if you did need one. I am in the process of changing the front end of my standard to the ABS model (not the ABS system) to get the better braking. Also the front tire of the ABSII models is the same size as the ST1300 which gives you more choices for tire selection. If the bikes happen to be the same color and the body work on the standard is in better shape, you could swap that (except for the front fender).

DATA COLLECTING (newbie here BUT Ex ST1100 rider) what are the front tyre sizes non ABS and ABSII

thanks