Valve Adjust

[Bush]

Just finished up first valve check and adjustment I've done vs. paying a shop to do it.

Question I have is re those reusable gaskets for the valve covers. Manual tells you to use gasket sealer on the 4 half moons when reassembling although I note in the video I watched the guy did not appear to use anything. The shop that previously did my valve adjustment certainly used some and it a bear to remove. I was thinking about using Permatex gasket remover but I'm concerned it might damage the rubber gasket.

So 2 questions here. Is it absolutely necessary to use gasket sealer on the valve cover gasket and how do people get the residual gasket material off of the gasket?

Congratulations on doing that valve adjust yourself! One thing for certain is, it is a much simpler job on an 1100 than a 1300, not having to deal with the timing chain.

The sealer around the half moons is highly recommended. You don't want to have to go back in to do it, if a leak appears. Cleaning off old sealant can be a pain, unless you use a silicone type, which does come off easily. Pretty much just peels off. I use Permatex Blue and I put a very tiny bead of it around the entire gasket to cover side. This is not necessary, but it does help keep the gasket in place as you invert it for installation onto the head.

If yours won't clean up easily, buy new ones and then use the Permatex for trouble free checks in the future.

 

[wjbertrand]

... and where are any of these ST burned valves, damaged heads, and engines that have waited until it is way too late? I'm sure there must be one somewhere.

Tom

I've never heard of it happening to an ST1300 but my 1100 and several others have suffered burnt exhaust valves. In my case strangely, it was not due to letting the clearance get too tight as the clearance was still correct, same as the last time I checked it, before I disassembled the engine. The machinist that replaced the valve and cleaned up the head speculated it was probably a bit of loose carbon that kept the valve from seating momentarily. This would have the same consequences as letting the clearance get too tight.

Once a valve is burnt the bike makes a funny metallic "chuffing" noise as the ignited mixture blows through the burned section. The engine will also run roughly and be way down on power.

 

[TPadden]

In my case strangely, it was not due to letting the clearance get too tight as the clearance was still correct, same as the last time I checked it...

Jeff,

Although your data point indicates checking valve clearance was a waste of time in your case; I really appreciate your honesty in adding that detail .

How much did replacing that valve, guide if needed, and regrinding the seat cost in relation to a valve adjustment not just a check?

Whenever my air cooled Ducati needed a valve adjustment it simply got really hard to start . My air cooled BMW, with screw and lock nut adjustments calls for checks every 5,000 miles but whenever I checked they never changed so I let them go to every 15,000 miles or so and they still never change .

Air cooled and non-shimmed is a very different case than water cooled and shim under bucket with a cam to remove.

Tom

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

The recommended Pro Honda Hondabond HT sealant works great and comes off with your fingernail. If the ST has accumulated some miles I’d sure take a minute to smear the gray stuff on the gaskets’ half moons before reinstalling. Rather than having to pull them again right away for an oil seep/weep/leak. JMHO

Edit: replacing the washers that install under the valve cover bolt heads will help insure the gaskets are compressed properly. N.B. DO NOT overtorque the valve cover bolts! Their threads end at a shoulder that seats against the aluminum head. Over torquing will snap the bolt, as a few folks have found out while trying to stop an oil leak.

John

 

[ReSTored]

Congratulations on doing that valve adjust yourself! One thing for certain is, it is a much simpler job on an 1100 than a 1300, not having to deal with the timing chain.

The sealer around the half moons is highly recommended. You don't want to have to go back in to do it, if a leak appears. Cleaning off old sealant can be a pain, unless you use a silicone type, which does come off easily. Pretty much just peels off. I use Permatex Blue and I put a very tiny bead of it around the entire gasket to cover side. This is not necessary, but it does help keep the gasket in place as you invert it for installation onto the head.

If yours won't clean up easily, buy new ones and then use the Permatex for trouble free checks in the future.

Has anyone used Permatex Gasket Remover (or something similar)to clean up the reusable gaskets? I'm picking away at these now but it's a tedious and unrewarding process. I'm a little concerned that the Permatex product might damage the gasket. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the shop that did the valve adjustment the last time did not spend any extra time cleaning up the gaskets to reuse them so I'm assuming they must have used some type of solution on them to remove the old gasket material.

 

[dwalby]

Has anyone used Permatex Gasket Remover (or something similar)to clean up the reusable gaskets? I'm picking away at these now but it's a tedious and unrewarding process. I'm a little concerned that the Permatex product might damage the gasket. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the shop that did the valve adjustment the last time did not spend any extra time cleaning up the gaskets to reuse them so I'm assuming they must have used some type of solution on them to remove the old gasket material.

"gasket remover" is typically used on paper-type gaskets that bond to the metal over time and require scraping to remove. The remover helps to soften and bubble up the old gasket, making it easier to scrape. In the old days it was a pretty strong chemical, but I think the environmentally friendly version available today is pretty tame. Now may be a good time to just bite the bullet and buy new gaskets, plus the grommets that go under the valve cover bolts to get everything back to like new. I've found that as those grommets are re-used they compress, and eventually you can't get the gasket to seal because they're not allowing the bolts to apply enough clamping force to the gasket.

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

I’d say the way to go is Permatex or sumsuch to semi-glue the gasket to the valve cover so it stays on/with the cover when it’s removed, and nothing on the other/head side of the gasket except possibly Pro Honda Hondabond HT on the half moons. BTDT JMHO

John

 

[dduelin]

Yes, I agree. On my ST1300 I used orange Permatex RTV on the perimeter of entire gasket the first time and I ended up replacing both gaskets the second valve check. It was just not removable from the recessed channel of the gasket, or packing as Honda calls it.

On the 1300 the gasket is installed dry with just a tiny booger of HondaBond on the gasket in the “90 degree corners” on either side of the half moon and the lightest of smears in the semicircle on the cylinder head itself. Less is more will seal it until the next time and then it will virtually peel off with a fingernail.

 

[ReSTored]

OK, I finished up cleaning the gaskets, what a PITA....... Cost for the 8 washers + shipping to my mailbox in Niagara Falls, NY is $44 CDN, cost to ship directly to my house is $88 CDN + delivery delay of 5 - 7 business days. Cost from local Honda Dealer is $50 CDN and, wonder of wonders, they'll be delivered from the local Honda parts warehouse to the dealer tomorrow PM. I'll pick up some Hondabond when I'm there.

I'll preorder gaskets + washers next time I check the valves. I'll see if the Hondabond cleans up easier than what was on there now and I'll have replacements on hand just in case.

Thanks all for the feedback and advice.

 

[wjbertrand]

Jeff,

Although your data point indicates checking valve clearance was a waste of time in your case; I really appreciate your honesty in adding that detail .

How much did replacing that valve, guide if needed, and regrinding the seat cost in relation to a valve adjustment not just a check?

Whenever my air cooled Ducati needed a valve adjustment it simply got really hard to start . My air cooled BMW, with screw and lock nut adjustments calls for checks every 5,000 miles but whenever I checked they never changed so I let them go to every 15,000 miles or so and they still never change .

Air cooled and non-shimmed is a very different case than water cooled and shim under bucket with a cam to remove.

Tom

I had all of the valve stem seals replaced and reground all the seats in both heads. The bike used oil so I was hoping to cure that problem too - it didn't change. I did all the disassembly and reassembly myself, but took the heads, valves still in place, cams removed, to a machinist for the repairs. If I can remember correctly, a number like $600 or so pops into mind for the valve replacement and all the machine work. Additional costs were for all the various gaskets, timing belt (engine had ~86K on it so figured I might as well replace it since I had to remove the old one anyway) and ancillary parts that were probably a few hundred more. Seems to me I ended up pretty close to a thousand bucks all in.

 

[TPadden]

If I can remember correctly, a number like $600 or so pops into mind for the valve replacement and all the machine work... Seems to me I ended up pretty close to a .thousand bucks all in.

Still about the cost of one BMW K1600 valve adjustment .

Tom

 

[wjbertrand]

It was a long time ago and I did a lot of the heavy lifting myself. Had I used a dealer it would have cost me more than the bike was worth several times over.

 

[DeanR]

Cost from local Honda Dealer is $50 CDN and, wonder of wonders, they'll be delivered from the local Honda parts warehouse to the dealer tomorrow PM. I'll pick up some Hondabond when I'm there.

Almost done Phil !
Good that your dealer can fix you up.
I think the Hondabond might be the same as the Yamabond I used. Lots better than what was on there. I just used a little at the 90° bends of the half moons.

 

[Scooter]

Agree running some sea foam is not a bad idea, but if there is carbon build up, removing it will result in tighter clearances, not looser.
Carbon deposits, if present, tend to hold the valve away from the seat slightly, increasing clearance at the opposite end. It won’t cause tight clearances.

Yep, you're right about that. I should have known better or thought a little bit more about that before typing what I did. Good catch...

 

[Scooter]

Bill, if you are thinking of going with Scooter's advice, it would be good for you to get, in writing, his guarantee that he will pay for a valve job on your engine, IF it should ever be required. I stress again, that these are exhaust valves, which run hotter than intakes and yes, maybe you do have some carbon build up, but that makes the situation even worse, as the carbon on the valve seats will act as an insulator, restricting heat transfer from the valve to the seat even more. That carbon can also become super heated and contribute to blowing a hole in the valve face.

Bush, I'm always amazed at how much advice you've got to contribute toward 1300 issues when you don't even own one. Actually if Bill lived anywhere near me I'd be happy to help him change those shims.

Not every ST1300 owner in the world is on this site, so to say that it is unheard of here means very little. Also, there are those that play roulette with things like this and then are rather reticent about admitting their errors on a forum.

Anecdotally speaking, it means volumes that over the course of 14 years I have yet to discover one instance of a 1300 burned out valve (other that the one suspicious report that Google found for me yesterday) and yet over that same time I have heard of more than a few 1100 burned valves and even witnessed one rider at Moonshine that ended up replacing his engine due to one. Of course that doesn't mean it can't happen but at this point I'm positive that 1300 is much better in this regard than the 1100.

If Honda thought .007 was OK, it would be spec'd as such. Are you going to wait until the measurement reads .006? If a valve has gotten tight, it isn't going to loosen up again.

Not really. I'm sure the engineers built in a fudge factor knowing that some owners are not always timely on their maintenance or that once it does get out of spec that it might be sitting there for awhile. If there was a high probability of burning a valve with it set to .007" then they didn't spec it right or they didn't design the valvetrain right.

If they are within spec, leave 'em alone. If out of spec, they need adjusting.

Good advice and what I follow on my own bike and when I have done for others. I still stand by my advice that he's not going to hurt anything running at .007" if he chooses to leave it for now...

 

[Bush]

Bush, I'm always amazed at how much advice you've got to contribute toward 1300 issues when you don't even own one.

I'm glad you are paying attention.

 

[CYYJ]

...replacing the washers that install under the valve cover bolt heads will help insure the gaskets are compressed properly.

John makes a very good point.

On my ST 1100, a 2001 model (one of the last ones made), even though I have always stored it indoors, most of those rubber washers have perished from sunlight exposure - especially the ones on the right-hand side of the engine, the side most exposed to sunlight when the bike is parked with the sidestand down. I think it would be impossible to get the gasket (new or used) to seal properly with perished rubber washers... which then increases the risk that the owner will overtorque the bolts in an attempt to seat the gasket / stop oil leaks, and snap off a bolt.

Michael

 

[dwalby]

On my ST 1100, a 2001 model (one of the last ones made), even though I have always stored it indoors, most of those rubber washers have perished from sunlight exposure - especially the ones on the right-hand side of the engine, the side most exposed to sunlight when the bike is parked with the sidestand down. I think it would be impossible to get the gasket (new or used) to seal properly with perished rubber washers... which then increases the risk that the owner will overtorque the bolts in an attempt to seat the gasket / stop oil leaks, and snap off a bolt.

Michael

On mine the bolt heads are the same diameter as the rubber grommets, so there's no surface for sunlight to attack. The inboard ones are out of the path of sunlight anyway, so they're not an issue. I don't know what you mean by "perished from sunlight exposure".

They compress over time and need to be periodically replaced, but I don't believe it has anything to do with sunlight, they're completely covered by the bolt head.

 

[TerryS]

Just finished up first valve check and adjustment I've done vs. paying a shop to do it.

Question I have is re those reusable gaskets for the valve covers. Manual tells you to use gasket sealer on the 4 half moons when reassembling although I note in the video I watched the guy did not appear to use anything. The shop that previously did my valve adjustment certainly used some and it a bear to remove. I was thinking about using Permatex gasket remover but I'm concerned it might damage the rubber gasket.

So 2 questions here. Is it absolutely necessary to use gasket sealer on the valve cover gasket and how do people get the residual gasket material off of the gasket?

I also use a dental pick to remove old sealer, just takes a little patience. I can certainly verify that using sealer is better than not doing so, I tried that on my VTR1000 (very similar gasket arrangement) and that weeped until I added the sealant. You may also find that over time the rubber washers in the cam cover hold down bolts will compress and that reduces the tension applied to the cam cover gasket and may also allow some weepage. New rubber washers are cheap, and in my experience unless these are replaced, a new gasket is a waste of time to fix a weep.

 

[dduelin]

I also use a dental pick to remove old sealer, just takes a little patience. I can certainly verify that using sealer is better than not doing so, I tried that on my VTR1000 (very similar gasket arrangement) and that weeped until I added the sealant. You may also find that over time the rubber washers in the cam cover hold down bolts will compress and that reduces the tension applied to the cam cover gasket and may also allow some weepage. New rubber washers are cheap, and in my experience unless these are replaced, a new gasket is a waste of time to fix a weep.

The ST1300 service manual indicates the valve covers be installed dry with the exception of sealant applied at the half moon semicircles. Indeed, if the mounting rubbers do not compress when the valve cover bolt is tightened to just 9 ft lbs they need to be replaced because it is their ability to resist compression that provides the pressure to seal with a dry (no sealant applied) gasket.

After initial replacement at 22,000 miles because I applied sealant all the way around, the next set of gaskets have sealed the covers as designed for nearly 170,000 miles.