Valve adjustment

[jamalc6996]

what part of the state are you in?

Eau Claire

 

[red one]

It almost seems that there are more need-mechanicall-help threads and posts about 1300s than 1100s, despite the age range difference. Am I imagining it, or is it true, and an indication of the 1100s' reliability?

It almost seems that there are more need-mechanicall-help threads and posts about 1300s than 1100s, despite the age range difference. Am I imagining it, or is it true, and an indication of the 1100s' reliability?

I dunno larry. Seems to me like both the 1100's and 1300's are getting old. Add the fact that even a 10 year old ST1300 may be big coin to do major surgery to it, that is why the forum is so busy. Perfect example is a poster posted that the dealer quoted $800.00 labor to replace his cam belt well you can see why people flock to this site. I see it about even. As far as reliability I think its close but I will give the nod to the ST1100 being its simpler and less things to break.

 

[jamalc6996]

Item #: 12391-MCS-000 is the valve cover gasket.

 

[TerryS]

Both the ST 1100 and the ST 1300 use the 7.48 diameter shims. The other size might be for dirt bikes, I don't know.

Michael

My VTR1000F takes the 9.48mm diameter shims; haven't turned that into a dirt bike (yet).

 

[Larry Fine]

My VTR1000F takes the 9.48mm diameter shims; haven't turned that into a dirt bike (yet).

Wouldn't that be a Versys 1000?

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

Honda lists 69 shims in .025mm increments from:
14901-KT7-013 SHIM, TAPPET (1.200) [7.48mm x 1.200mm]
thru to
14969-KT7-013 SHIM, TAPPET (2.900) [7.48mm x 2.900mm]

 

[Larry Fine]

Honda lists 69 shims in .025mm increments from:
14901-KT7-013 SHIM, TAPPET (1.200) [7.48mm x 1.200mm]
thru to
14969-KT7-013 SHIM, TAPPET (2.900) [7.48mm x 2.900mm]

That's a lot of shim!

 

[Bikeric]

From whatI have seen in the last 9 months of membership, 1300s are much more complicated (Modern?) than the 1100s so there is more to go wrong! (Wait for the howls of indignation...…!!)

 

[sennister]

Regarding the shim kit, doesn't John O. have one to loan out for the cost of shipping?

Since its rare to need more than a couple shims, and many times you don't need any, seems like buying a shim kit is an unnecessary expense. In the past I just traded them at the local shop where I bought tires, supplies, etc. and they did it for free. Even if you have to buy a couple they're a few bucks each, but I haven't bought them lately so that price may have gone up a bit.

Not sure if he has one but he responded in the thread and didn't indicate it. While an additional expense, they are not that expensive. I think I paid something like $40 for mine. They might be around $60 now. For $60 I would rather this be a couple hour job vs several days or a week. Even factoring in my time running around to get to a dealer to swap out shims or pick up an order isn't worth the $60 to me. If a kit was $500 then I would tend to agree with you. Many of the times when you check them, they are in tollerance so you may not have even needed to change any.

I did the math , I ordered my shim, wait for one week. Shim came in, put everything back together. checked the clearance-- it got tighter-- I did the math wrong ( somehow) took it all back apart. ordered new shim, waited one week. Then it was correct....

And this is why you want a shim kit on hand. I hate leaving a bike ripped apart for a week or so. That is just asking for forgetting how something goes back together, little fingers to come by and "borrow" a new toy or missplacing something. Besides you are looking at a week or so of down time.

Ah, I'm used to SoCal where there's a motorcycle shop on every block, not exactly, but you get the idea. Also, the shims are universal, you can buy them from any dealer or independent shop, they're not Honda specific.

Not Honda specific but there are different diameters. Not every manufacturer uses the 7.48mm. Also different engines use different size shims so they may not have the thickness you need if it isn't something that is common. Also some small engines have an adjustment so no shims are needed. Granted these are not motorcycle engines but the Kawasaki V-Twin that powers my John Deere Tractor(X585) and John Deere Zero Turn (Z950R) both have a bolt I turn to change the gap.

+1 7.48mm for both STs

John

Yep that is the size diameter. There is also a shim thickness range that is most common. My guess is a search will turn up which Hot Cams set to buy. I can look at mine and see if it is marked but I also don't know that I didn't buy a hybrid kit. Meaning I bought and combined two kits or at a minimum I have restocked mine over the years a bunch of times after working on so many STs for people. Doesn't do much good to buy a kit and they are all way too thick or thin.

From whatI have seen in the last 9 months of membership, 1300s are much more complicated (Modern?) than the 1100s so there is more to go wrong! (Wait for the howls of indignation...…!!)

I own both. I have at some point owed 2x 1100s and 2x 1300s. I currently have the two 1100s and one 1300 in the garage. It is a mixed bag. The 1100 has the same valve clearance checks but the design with the timing belt makes it much easier if you are swapping shims. You have to unhook the timing chain from the sprockets on the cam shafts to get them out, not lose the timing chain in the engine and mess with the tensioner. With the 1100 they are just held in place by the cam shaft holder. You don't touch the timing belt. However my 1100s are old enough where I need to do a timing belt change on them. Never had an issue with the timing chain and the 1300s have way more miles put on them than the 1100s. Carbs while simpler have caused me way more issues than Fuel Injection ever has. An 1100 is more stable at speed but not as fun in the twisties. The plastic is so much easier to come off and on with the 1300 that it makes it a lot easier to work on. There are fairings on the 1100 I have yet to take off like up around the headlight. So I just avoid it and work around it best I can. I take the plastic off the 1300 so easily that I can do it almost blindfolded. That makes maintenance much faster. They are different bikes.

 

[sennister]

Eau Claire

I am pretty sure that I have the HCSHIM01 kit. Normally I would say you can come over and we can do it in my shop but it is going to be a month or so before you would be able to get a bike to my house unless you trailered it. That would likely be the best option anyhow since the bike has to be cold to do it. By the time the ice is gone from our gravel road, I will be busy with construction as we are adding a garage to the house so I don't really have much availability until probably late June at the earliest provided there are no major construction delays which there always are. If you wanted help and could wait on it, I could do so. I can't even begin to count how many times I have done the job on my bikes or bikes for others. Oh I and I have seen people screw this up. Even dealer. A buddy dropped his bike off one night because we were going to work on it in the morning. Probably a doing the clearance check. I tossed him the keys for my 1100 and he took that home leaving his. He gets back and comments on how my 1100 is much smoother and has better throttle response than his. I kind of shrugged it off. We get into his bike (if not that day it was another session) and discover his clearances were way off. At first I asked how long he went between checking them and he was in the mileage limits. Then I looked at the numbers again and rechecked my work. I forget way they were off but the dealer had used the exhaust or maybe in was intake clearances for both cams on one side of the engine. One cam was in spec and the other out by quite a bit. The clearances are different for intake and exhaust. He was pissed and pairanoid that there was major damage. I explained that at this point he was something like 12K miles with it out of spec but there isn't much that can be done. Worst case he might have burned a valve. Lets get it in spec and test it. The bike not only still ran but ran much better. He said the hesitation was gone and his bike now rode like my 1100. I took it out for a quick spin and I couldn't tell the difference between his and mine either.

 

[dwalby]

Not Honda specific but there are different diameters. Not every manufacturer uses the 7.48mm. Also different engines use different size shims so they may not have the thickness you need if it isn't something that is common. Also some small engines have an adjustment so no shims are needed. Granted these are not motorcycle engines but the Kawasaki V-Twin that powers my John Deere Tractor(X585) and John Deere Zero Turn (Z950R) both have a bolt I turn to change the gap.

I think you kinda went off on a tangent with regards to my original point. I was simply stating that if you walk into any motorcycle dealer or shop with your old shim in hand, they should be able to find you the one you need because that shim diameter is/was used by many different bikes. You're not limited to buying them at a Honda dealer.

 

[wjbertrand]

I have the Hot Cams kit, forget the product number, but it came in two boxes. I noticed that my 1100 tended to use shims from the thicker end of the range while the 1300 used them from the thinner end. Unfortunately they are the wrong diameter for my Super Tenere, so now I have two kits!

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

Re: the ST1100/1300 Owner’s Club (STOC) loaner valve clearance check/shim R&R kit.

I don’t manage that particular kit, Eric Russell, STOC 2860, does (register):
STOC Valve Shim Kit

The kit has feelers, video, worksheets... all kinds of extras collected over the years to help do the job. Plus the shims of course. I’ve used it at a TechSTOC, a great resource to have.

The problem with the non-Honda shim “kits” is the shims are in increments of .050mm, whereas the Honda shims are .025mm. A Honda .025mm is virtually the same as .001” (.0254mm), which is why I highly recommend measuring valve clearances in SAE instead of metric. You can measure finer (metric) but you can’t adjust clearance finer than one thousanth of an inch.

So... a HotCams .050mm shim can move your clearance 3 thousandths of an inch from the extant. With an ST1100 “in spec” range of only 3 thousandths (.005”-.007”/.009”-.010”) this limits your ability to do the desired job. IMNSHO

BTW, I’ve posted a number of times about this but....
You can skip the math and formulas when selecting replacement shims: identify the current shim size by its 3-digit marking, find it on the Honda shim list printout (avail), and for every thousandth of an inch you wish to change your clearance go up or down the list a shim size. Remember, each increment is .025mm = .001”. This a no-brainer. Quite probably the way your dealer would do it. The only way to screw it up would be to select a thicker shim when you’re trying to increase your clearance (too tight exhaust valve for example). In that case you probably shouldn’t be doing this yourself.

FWIW

John

 

[Andrew Shadow]

The problem with the non-Honda shim “kits” is the shims are in increments of .050mm, whereas the Honda shims are .025mm. A Honda .025mm is virtually the same as .001” (.0254mm), which is why I highly recommend measuring valve clearances in SAE instead of metric. You can measure finer (metric) but you can’t adjust clearance finer than one thousanth of an inch.

So... a Hotshims .050mm shim increment moves your clearance 2 thousandths of an inch from the extant. With an “in spec” range of only 3 thousandths (.005”-.007”/.009”-.010”) this limits your ability to do the desired job. IMNSHO

That's good to know- makes it easier. Honda shims it is when the time comes for me.
Thanks John!

It almost seems that there are more need-mechanicall-help threads and posts about 1300s than 1100s, despite the age range difference. Am I imagining it, or is it true, and an indication of the 1100s' reliability?

I would suspect that now there are probably many more 1300 owners on this forum than 1100 owners. That alone would naturally mean many more 1300 posts as more people are servicing them compared to 1100's. I don't think that is indicative of either bikes reliability.

I wonder if Joe has statistics on ownership numbers extracted from what people enter on their profile. Would interesting to see what the split is now between 1100, 1300 and other.

 

[wjbertrand]

It almost seems that there are more need-mechanicall-help threads and posts about 1300s than 1100s, despite the age range difference. Am I imagining it, or is it true, and an indication of the 1100s' reliability?

I wouldn't take that interpretation from the forum posts. As mentioned before, there are probably more 1300s on the forum as the 1100s are fewer and fewer on the road. You can see this at many STOC events too.

My personal experience having owned a '93 1100 and an '05 1300 is that the 1300 was more reliable. My 11 suffered both a burnt valve and a failed 28A alternator, both pretty expensive repairs if I hadn't done the jobs myself. My ST1300 only had a warped front rotor and a failed thermostat until reaching 150,000+ miles where it developed an insoluble misfire.

 

[sennister]

I think you kinda went off on a tangent with regards to my original point. I was simply stating that if you walk into any motorcycle dealer or shop with your old shim in hand, they should be able to find you the one you need because that shim diameter is/was used by many different bikes. You're not limited to buying them at a Honda dealer.

I am just saying that shims are not 100% interchangeable between all makes and models. As long as the diameter is right and they have the size you need you are right. I have a Yamaha and a Kawasaki dealer 2 miles from the house, I have never gone in asking for shims but they might have one that works. If you go to an independent shop that isn't brand specific you will have even better luck. Not denying that. I can't think of any independent shops around me. Though I have never taken any of my bikes to the dealer either for that matter since I do all my own work.

My main point is that if the kit was hundreds of dollars the I would probably do the dance of calling around or driving around. For $60 it isn't worth my time, I just have a kit on hand. I bought my kit many years ago and think I paid closer to $40 for it. Personally I use a $100/hr rule. If something costs $100 or less and saves me an hour of time (because it makes a job easier or time running around) I don't hesitate to buy that thing. Maybe it is a special tool or in this case a shim kit. $200/hr I think about it a little more. Everyone needs to put their own value on time. To each their own. Maybe this is why I am breaking ground on a new 1200 sqft garage in the next couple months. I have run out of places to store stuff in my current 2500 sqft of accessory buildings.

 

[sennister]

I have the Hot Cams kit, forget the product number, but it came in two boxes. I noticed that my 1100 tended to use shims from the thicker end of the range while the 1300 used them from the thinner end. Unfortunately they are the wrong diameter for my Super Tenere, so now I have two kits!

That is what I can't remember it was so many years ago. I was thinking I bought two kits and consolodated what I needed which is why I was thinking I had some hybrid kit. I know I only have one box of shims that I use and I seem to remember resorting a bunch to get there. I think I bought my kit(s) 10 years or more ago.

 

[jamalc6996]

Purchased a hot cams valve shim kit and valve cover gasket set just in case.

 

[W0QNX]

Hi Jamal:

I did a valve adjustment on my ST 1300 this winter - at the same time, I also replaced the thermostat and a number of coolant hoses and clamps.

The process of checking valve clearance is very well documented here in the forum - there are some excellent articles that explain the process in detail, and some downloadable worksheets to assist you. I highly recommend the Microsoft Excel valve clearance worksheet, I found it very helpful.

Here are some "general suggestions" I have for you, based on my experience:

1) If you are going to be replacing the thermostat (implies removing the radiator), then take the front wheel off, take the rad off, and take that whole cover off the front of the engine (clutch cover). It is one heck of a lot easier to turn the engine over and line up the timing marks when you don't have to look through the little holes in the clutch cover! You will need to buy and replace a gasket if you take the cover off, but it is not expensive.

I might be the only one here who thinks this but removing the front engine cover just to rotate the engine and see the position marks better is NOT a shortcut. No way no how is removing that cover for a Valve check-adjustment the thing to do.

I didn't post anything from the original posters first post but how the heck do you think the valves now suddenly need adjustment just because you're starting the bike up from a winter shut down? Valve train system should knock some. If it doesn't is when there is no clearance between parts. And a winter sleep won't make valve parts move.

But maybe it was in need of repair before you put the bike up????

 

[CYYJ]

...but removing the front engine cover just to rotate the engine and see the position marks better is NOT a shortcut.

I agree with what you wrote above, and I am the person who suggested removing the front engine cover. But, I didn't suggest that it be removed "just" to do the valve check. The OP indicated that he was going to be replacing the thermostat and "a bunch of other things", and it was because he was planning to do that combination of work that I suggested taking the engine cover off.

When I did my valve adjustment, I did it after replacing the thermostat, replacing a bunch of coolant hoses and clamps, and taking the cover off the water pump to clean out the passageways from the V of the engine down to the square drain hole. I had never done a valve check before, and after reading up on the process, I figured I might as well take that front engine cover off, that would enable me to see (and have access to) the chains that drive the cams, and also enable me to see how the whole cam chain / tensioner/ drive gear assembly worked.

If I need to adjust valves in the future, I won't take the cover off. But I am glad I took it apart the first time around, I learned a lot by looking in there, and what I learned will make it easier for me to do the same work in the future.

I would not recommend removing that engine cover if the only task an owner wants to accomplish is a valve clearance check.

Michael