Zumo XT Trip Repair Tool

ST1100Y

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Dunno if such is an issue in the (simpler) US road layout, but some folks have a solution for the RUT issue occurring with routes planed and imported with BaseCamp

 

jfheath

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This was an issue that I reported to Garmin 2 years ago, and have been badgering them ever since. At last a few of us on ZumoUserForums who have been looking at it from different angles have spotted a link between the contents of a file and the behaviour on the road.

I did the identification of the fault and pinpointed exacty when it happened. This was important because at first the weird behaviour seems to be random. I needed to be able to make it fail every single time. Once I knew this, I could see when it did not fail and find out what the difference was. I proved that it didnt happen if the identical route was created on the XT itself. This enabled us to focus on finding the difference between routes that had been created on the XT and routes that had been imported. FrankB found a possibility in a hidden file - he decoded the file and tried changing a single entry. I was then able to repeat tests that had previously failed, to confirm that they now behaved themselves.

I have been in touch with Garmin Suport throughout all of this, providing solid evidence, and have passed on the recent success in the last couple of weeks. We are waiting for the team in the USA to confirm the results and hopefully fix the software.

The code / technique was passed to JaVaWa to publish as they had the technology to produce a platform independant version - although you have to edit one route file at a time. A version for Pc / Windows or a Java version that FrankB wrote processes all files. He also has one that edits the files directly on the XT.

You can read the progress here on zumouserforums if you are interested.




 
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Mellow

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I just found out you can add a SKIP button to the map, only when on a route, where you can skip a waypoint.

But yeah, there are many times I take a wrong turn and just want to get back to my route quickly but not by doing a u-turn.. that gets very annoying as it wants you to keep making a u-turn... lol I typically just head in a general direction where I know my route will be coming up but even when you get back ON your route it wants you to make a u-turn so the skip will help in that scenario.

Hopefully garmin will update the software, heck with all the info provided a novice programmer should be able to make the fix.. I'm a mainframe programmer and can probably do that one lol
 

jfheath

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Can't you simply uncheck the option for U-turns?
That would seem logical, but all that does is hides the fact that it is still trying to turn you round by other means.
A couple of weeks ago, when testing, I noticed it taking me 15 miles to find a housing estate in which it could turn me round to take me 15 miles back ! That is very difficult to spot with U turns disabled - because for 15 miles it appears to be navigating correctly ahead.

This behaviour only happens when a route has been recalculated (eg after pressing skip). Turning off recalculation prevents it - but then if you wander off route you are on your own. Fewer via points helps here. Prefer shaping points.
 
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ST1100Y

ST1100Y

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I kinda fail to see why they'd programmed such a crap to begin with... (that issue is persisting in all Zumo series...)

Leaving a route (for whatever reason: roadwork/detour, fixing a flat, getting fuel/food, sightseeing...) and returning onto it is a standard, everyday process...
My old '04 Garmin Quest-I has no problem; upon leaving the route it prompts [recalculate? YES/NO] (ignoring = no), you can roam around, do your business, thread back into the bearing line, and the unit picks up navigating again, simple as that...
TomTom is even worse, I observed kits insisting on returning to the starting point... whiskey tango foxtrot?!! :rolleyes:
 

jfheath

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The XT is the first one that I've had that displayed this particular issue. (From 550, 660, 590 and 595)
Perhaps we are not talking about the same thing.
 

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I use a Zumo XT and have kind of noticed this issue. Doesn't automatic skipping if waypoint correct this, or am I'm missing something here. Under NO circumstance do I ever hit recalculate.

Just trying to understand and learn here.
 

jfheath

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Pressing skip causes the XT to recalculate all sections of the route, rather than just the sections affected by removing (skipping) one of the route points. Selecting Closest Entry Point also recalculates.

A quick aside. Have you ever loaded a track and selected 'Go!'. Its worth doing to see its behaviour. The track stays in place always, but shows as a megenta line. if you deviate from it, you get a dotted magenta straight line between you and the closest point of the track. It constantly changes as you ride. The bottom right data display shows how far away the closest point is. No navigation just information - "your original track is 3 miles in this direction". Try it. It is surprisingly relaxing.

Another quick aside. If you turn a track into a trip on the XT screen, you get spoken, turn by turn directions. There are no route points, so if you deviate, the XT does the same trick of finding the closest point - but his time it navigates you to it. Part of your route has now changed - there is a new section between you and that closest point. And this becomes the route.

Back to the plot. It seems that when a normal route is recalculated after a skip, It rebuilds the route in a similar way to the last example. If you then deviate significantly - eg turn off at 90 degrees - it will try to turn you round to go back. Nothing unusual there. That is to be expected if it is the faster way to get to the next route point. But it seems that it is not trying to get you to the next route point anymore, it is trying to get you back to the closest point, and it has just laid a new bit of route behind you to get to that first closest point. The new closest point is now behind you. And each time it lays a new bit of route, always will be. Until you get close to the original section of the route.

I don't know this for certain, but I have evidence that strongly suggests that this is the case.**

But all of the above does not happen if the route has been built on the XT screen. It only happens if it has come from Basecamp, MRA, or some other external source.

The XT distinguishes between different types of route - 'Saved' and 'Imported'. They are listed separately when you open up the Trip Planner App. Only the routes created on the XT show as 'saved'. All of the others are imported.

It turns out that in the .System folder is a folder for 'Trips'. each trip file contains some information relating to each trip or route. One of these bits of info is a 'flag'. A boolean true/false value called mImport. If you change this from a 1 (=true) to a zero (=false) , the XT sees this as a saved route rather than an imported route. And the route then behaves perfectly - ie if you deviate, it calculates another way to get you to the next route point. Initially this may want to take you back, but unlike before, it does not persist.

I have been in conversation with tech support about this for about 2 years, providing evidence, and in the last couple of weeks this solution which came about from a discussion as my testing started to home in on the precise circumstances when it happened.

FrankB found the relevant flags. Someone else spotted that the XT separates imported from Saved. I had never seen that, as I always cleared out my XT when starting a new test, and I always use Basecamp or MRA.

------------

*** That evidence - if you turn off U turns, the same behaviour still exists, but instead of u turns you get instruction to turn round using housing estates, side roads, complex road junctions. The important thing is that these can be seen on the map, and each new turn round command results in another loop on the XT's screen. If you turn round and follow the route that it is proposing, it navigates you through all of the housing estate, side roads and complex road junctions where it attempted to turn you round before. Which I think proves that it is laying new sections of route behind you rather than trying to get you to the next route point.

Whatever - they have everything they need. The technician at last recognises the problem, which they cannot simulate, and the solution is actually quite convincing in that it points the finger to the fact that the problem exists.

It would help if Garmin got everyone to use the same terminology consistently instead of introducing a Trip as a new thing for a term that they have already used for something else !
 
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jfheath

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Here is a video showing how to convert an imported route into a saved route - just using the XT screen. The process is described above already but this is what it looks like on the screen.

Just an additional tool, and already described above. But to use this, all you need is your XT in your hand.

Someone (@JackBunce) reported that the sound was barely audible. I've boosted it somewhat in the link below. Thanks, Jack - I hadn't realised - it was loud enough on my PC amplified speakers ! I have extracted the soundtrack and boosted it - but it meant uploading a new video.


Version 2 - Louder Soundtrack


The Repeated U-Turn behaviour - for which I coined the term "RUT" (as in being stuck in one) is most likely to show itself if the route has recalculated, and you subsequently go off route.
Then rather than navigating to the next route point, it spots the closest point on the route it has just calculated - which is nearly always behind you, and takes you to that.

It never happens for routes that are created on the XT itself though - a discovery that I stumbled across while out testing and needed to rebuild a route at the side of the road. It then behaved perfectly. That led to the discovery by FrankB that there was a single flag and later that a route could be set to saved just using the XT screen.

That XT-in-hand-while-on-tour method is decibed in my dulcet tones below.

Just be aware that the XT needs to calculate a route from where you are now to the first point of the route - so if your route is on another continent, or or even a hundred miles away, you may want to leave this until the night before you set off.

Alternatively, you can turn the GPS receiver off (in the navigation menu), place a point on the map near to the start of your route (don't save it) and then use the XT scroll down menu on the left of the map to 'Set Location'.

One video, but it is in two sections.
1. Nobbling the route so that it is 'Saved' rather than 'Imported'
2. Loading the 'Saved' route and saying 'Go!'.

Step 2 starts at 2:40 ish.

Ps. the displayed coordinates are nowhere near where I live. I placed the bike in a random position in Yorkshire and set the bike at that position. Its probably in the middle of a field somewhere. !
 
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RUT is a very annoying issue.. I create routes in Basecamp, download onto sd card, then import to Zumo XT.

What I find has worked for me when I miss a point and get RUT, I stop the route, reload the route AND start the route in the next waypoint.
It recalculates and I'm back on created route.

I also found that if you create a route that starts and stops at the same point, Zumo will send you back to the end (stopping) point immediately.
I solved this annoyance by riding in direction of my 1st waypoint or shaping point and THEN activate the route once I am away from my Start/Stop location.
Route then runs as planned....unless I encounter a RUT, then I stop the route and reload it starting at next waypoint or shaping point.

Very annoying to have to do this with Garmin's latest "GREAT" gps tool :-(

Garmin should have fixed this when it was brought to lightbut evidently they don't care about supporting their products once they're sold.
 

jfheath

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RUT is a very annoying issue.. I create routes in Basecamp, download onto sd card, then import to Zumo XT.
Yes it is. And downloading to SD card avoids some other issues too.

What I find has worked for me when I miss a point and get RUT, I stop the route, reload the route AND start the route in the next waypoint.
It recalculates and I'm back on created route.
I assume here, by 'Waypoint' you mean the next Via point - Using the option to choose the Next Destination from the list of Via Points that are displayed. It only shows Via Points.
So I am pretty sure that is what you mean. I think ?? For Garmin, Waypoints are the location that you create in Basecamap with the flag tool. They can be set to alerting (Via Points) or non-alerting (Shaping Points) in Basecamp. These pre-saved Waypoints are transferred to Zumo's list of 'Favourites'. (Favourites may appear on the screen as 'Saved' in Canada).

I also found that if you create a route that starts and stops at the same point, Zumo will send you back to the end (stopping) point immediately.
The XT shouldn't do that - but it will if you have a start and an end point and either no intermediate route points, or only shaping points - Blue discs on the map.

I solved this annoyance by riding in direction of my 1st waypoint or shaping point and THEN activate the route once I am away from my Start/Stop location.
Usually if you haven't gone through your start point, the XT will always ask you to go back to it. So I am not suer what is happening here from what you describe. Another tactic is to place the Start point at a point that you know that you will ride through AFTER the place where you get on the bike. This gives the XT time to get a good satellite fix and leaves a bit of wiggle room if your start position isn't accurately placed. The XT will calculate a route to your start point and navigate from there. I often use this trick if I am stopping in a town. My start point will be maybe 3-4 miles away on the road that I want to be on after leaving the built up area. The XT will recalculate no matter where I go - food, fuel, road works . It will always take me to the start and continue without stopping for breath.

Route then runs as planned....unless I encounter a RUT, then I stop the route and reload it starting at next waypoint or shaping point.
That works too - but you can only restart a route by choosing the next Via Point. Shaping points are not listed. You could also use Closest Entry Point - but you have to check that the map is showing a sensible answer. It has produced weird results int he past - but easy to spot from the map.

Very annoying to have to do this with Garmin's latest "GREAT" gps tool :-(

Garmin should have fixed this when it was brought to lightbut evidently they don't care about supporting their products once they're sold.
Not for the want of trying. I have had a case - about the RUT issue - open for two years. They kept telling me that the team in the USA were working on it. But no hard evidence has come from that - I dropped them a line a couple of weeks ago on the 2nd anniversary. Trying to find out if anybody is still working on this, or if I was just being 'strung along'. I haven't had a reply as yet.
 
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I use a Zumo XT and have kind of noticed this issue. Doesn't automatic skipping if waypoint correct this, or am I'm missing something here. Under NO circumstance do I ever hit recalculate.

Just trying to understand and learn here.
This works for me 99.9% of the time, AutoRecalculate is always set to Prompted and use the Skip button. My routes usually have enough waypoints/shaping points so even if it does recalculate my route I still follow it. There is the odd exception, but not the rule. If in doubt as you go along, just reload your route and carry on.
I understand the technical points you're explaining, and yes, if only we could go back to the old routing ways of the Garmin 550. It went where you told it, and didn't try to take you back to the last waypoint. I don't get why Garmin seemingly wants to emulate say Google Maps, etc. and get all complicated.
 
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I'm confused. Perhaps because I've never had this problem? Or maybe because you're talking "tracks" and I'm thinking "routes"? To me, a track is a set of bread crumbs to follow; I've rarely followed a track. A route is a series of intermediate destinations along a path that goes from point A to B.

One of the first things I've done when setting up my Zumo is to turn off "U-Turns". I'm not sure how you can get "Repeated U-Turns" guidance if the feature is turned off.

The other thing you can do is to use the "Skip To Next Stop Confirmation".


About the closest thing I've encountered (if I understand what's happening correctly) is when I've set my Navigation options to Allow Highways, and proceeded down back roads instead. The tiny lady inside the Zumo then keeps trying to route me out onto the freeway. But she only looks ahead, not behind. So she's directing me to take the next turn ahead...but never a U-turn.

Chris
 

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I understand the technical points you're explaining, and yes, if only we could go back to the old routing ways of the Garmin 550.
Curious that you wrote that because I still use a 550 and don't have these problems. I was wondering why a GPS that is so much newer does.
 
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That's what I was thinking. I had a Zumo 590 that I upgraded to a 595. Then I've had a couple Zumo XTs (replaced under warranty for other reasons). But through them all over about 150,000 miles of use, I've had none of these problems. That's why I'm not understanding.

Chris
 
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Mellow

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Each unit likely has a different version of software installed... even when updates are pushed they may push them in a batch so it seems like all the units are being updated but it's probably a bunch of single updates to many units and many versions.

The previous 595 I had worked great, if you missed a turn and passed a waypoint that was say 1 mile away but then came near a road which put you back on your route it would continue forward and ignore the waypoint you missed .

The XT will keep trying to route you back to that missed waypoint so you have to click the skip waypoint to continue on your route.

As stated in this thread, that is for a route you created on basecamp and then imported into the XT. If you built the route on the XT manually, it works like the 595 does (I haven't tried that myself as it's not all that fun).
 
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I sense a common thread in these responses.
that is for a route you created on basecamp and then imported into the XT. If you built the route on the XT manually, it works like the 595 does
"that is for a route you created on basecamp"

Ummm...why would anyone expect a different outcome, if they continued to use what has failed in the past? This sounds a bit like the idea that history repeats itself and those who don't learn from history will continue to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Who is smarter, the user or Basecamp?

Chris
 
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