“Serious Threat to Life” - Honda Pan European Review

Uncle Phil said:
I've always felt that it had something to do with the position of the windshield and creating aerodynamic lift.
To me it felt like trying to drive an old pickup truck with too much weight in the back and the front got 'light'.
When I dropped the windshield all the way down I did not encounter the problem regardless of top speed.
The nice thing about that section of the Autobahn I was on I could triple digit as long as I liked without fear of a ticket!
And I would still often be passed .... ;)
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It wasn’t just the windscreen adjustment because I explored that and luggage and suspension preload and tire choice and pressures trying to zero my 2005 in remove or minimize the onset. I was under 5’ 7” while riding my 05 and I always had the windscreen all the way down or at most up about an inch and a half. It is a complicated issue. Perhaps not all 1300s did it. I think that the combination of aerodynamics around the blunt front fairing and somewhat flexible aluminum frame set the stage for an oscillation feeding the weave. RIDE found something like 4 to 7° of yaw and roll measured at the luggage rack. It definitely isn’t something that starts in the forks going back-and-forth. I’m a light rider never weighing more than 165 pounds geared up and besides running max rear shock preload and the correct fork spring preload (for my weight) the factor that did the most to minimize it was replacing the OEM caged ball bearings in the head stock with tapered roller bearings. Of course by that time my bike had 96,000 miles on it and I don’t know if it was just learning the correct suspension settings by then or the steering bearing preload or both that “fixed” the weave.
 
dduelin said:
It wasn’t just the windscreen adjustment because I explored that and luggage and suspension preload and tire choice and pressures trying to zero my 2005 in remove or minimize the onset. I was under 5’ 7” while riding my 05 and I always had the windscreen all the way down or at most up about an inch and a half. It is a complicated issue. Perhaps not all 1300s did it. I think that the combination of aerodynamics around the blunt front fairing and somewhat flexible aluminum frame set the stage for an oscillation feeding the weave. RIDE found something like 4 to 7° of yaw and roll measured at the luggage rack. It definitely isn’t something that starts in the forks going back-and-forth. I’m a light rider never weighing more than 165 pounds geared up and besides running max rear shock preload and the correct fork spring preload (for my weight) the factor that did the most to minimize it was replacing the OEM caged ball bearings in the head stock with tapered roller bearings. Of course by that time my bike had 96,000 miles on it and I don’t know if it was just learning the correct suspension settings by then or the steering bearing preload or both that “fixed” the weave.
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The one I was on was headed for 'police service' before the ruckus started.
There were lots of factors I'm sure, I'm just explaining what my experience was.
Some had the issue, obviously some didn't - but if it occurred, you sure knew it and you knew it was not your imagination! ;)
The thing that bothered me the most about the video was how he tried to tie the ST1100 to it which was a bit of deceiving journalism.
To me it's like comparing the old C10 Concours to the C15 Concours - two different bikes designed by different groups of engineers.
 
I really like Ryan F9. There are many things to learn from his free videos. They're not all gems, but I can usually glean something useful from most of them.

This was one of my least favorite videos, especially because it confused the ST100 with the ST1300, but "pan weave" was real even if it was dramatized here. We live in a world of click bait. These are far from the the worst examples. I will keep watching his fun (and mostly informative) videos while using my best critical thinking skills to ignore the fluff.
 
It was 50-60F here in NC today, so I took my new-to-me 2006 ST1300 nabs on its first road trip from home base in central NC to its new garage in WNC near Maggie Valley, about 250 miles. After I brought it home I had the local dealer do a 16k service & install new Dunlops. The bike came with a Givi 400 liter top case, so that was on. I think it’s actually 40-liter but the turbulence it caused at I-40 speeds (+) was a bit uncomfortable at times. I wondered if the rear wheel was loose. The Givi will be off unless absolutely necessary. Aside from Asheville & construction traffic, a pretty good ride. I was wondering why Honda discontinued the ST. It was a little too easy to go a little too fast. Is that bad? Can’t wait to get into Smoky Mountain twisties.
 
I think I watched a different version of this episode. He was rather complementary to the 1100 pointing out the differences between the 1100 and 1300, the geometry of the two, the differences in handling…I thought he was impressed with the timing belt and the power the 1100 had. Unfortunately pulled up the one article one pulls up on every google search for a 1300… it would have been better if he debunked it, that would have made it a better video. However here we are…..
I wish the owner of the 1100 had replaced the right bulb of the headlight before filming it, other than that looked like a nice 99-02 ABSII.
;)
 
Yeah, I watched this PoS this evening and was disappointed.

RyanF9 is normally an excellent source of good information, insightful analysis, and rigorous engineering input (he actually has degrees in physics and philosophy) - but this was a smarmy, non-factual mess, and the mixing of the ST1100 and the ST1300 was very clumsy and totally unfair to both bikes.

The two motorcycles are entirely different except for a superficial physical resemblance, and both have their merits and demerits - but the "Pan-weave" issue is entirely an ST1300 problem.

....very disappointing......
 
kiltman said:
I think I watched a different version of this episode. He was rather complementary to the 1100 pointing out the differences between the 1100 and 1300, the geometry of the two, the differences in handling…I thought he was impressed with the timing belt and the power the 1100 had. Unfortunately pulled up the one article one pulls up on every google search for a 1300… it would have been better if he debunked it, that would have made it a better video. However here we are…..
I wish the owner of the 1100 had replaced the right bulb of the headlight before filming it, other than that looked like a nice 99-02 ABSII.
;)
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I didn't watch the video as I don't care for most of his videos.

As for the headlight, different countries have different rules about headlights. Was it "stock" internet video from who knows where or did he video it?
 
Except for the beginning of the video where he displays the ST1100 while talking about the weave issue occuring with the "second" generation of the bike, I think on first view, it's a pretty good endorsement of the ST1100. He should have displayed the ST1300 when referencing the weave issue. They're only second generation in model prefix; they're two different bikes standpoint of frame [well, maybe part of half of a frame... no?],engine, rake and wheelbase.
But, as marketing goes; got a new product? Want to sell as many as possible? How about a 1974 Ford midsize, I know... we'll call it... a Pinto II ! Naw, that won't work....
[edit] like everything, with a grain of salt
 
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Ron said:
I didn't watch the video as I don't care for most of his videos.

As for the headlight, different countries have different rules about headlights. Was it "stock" internet video from who knows where or did he video it?
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It was a North American ABSII, from the colour, a 1999-2002 model year, filmed on the West Coast. Intermixed with the video was pan events from Europe. It was brief. In that archival video were examples of Pans from different countries that either had both headlights illuminated or just one.
 
kiltman said:
Intermixed with the video was pan events from Europe. It was brief. In that archival video were examples of Pans from different countries that either had both headlights illuminated or just one.
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That footage is actually nicked from early, official 'Honda Pan-European Rally' videos (VHS era, YouTube) which could bear copyright issues as well...
 
kiltman said:
I think I watched a different version of this episode. He was rather complementary to the 1100 pointing out the differences between the 1100 and 1300, the geometry of the two, the differences in handling
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I coincidentally came across this video last night while surfing YouTube before I saw the posts about it here.

I think it's unfortunate that his video title displays a ST1100 when the offending bike is the ST1300, which he explains further into the story, but my take on the video was similar to kiltman's - that Ryan was essentially positive about the attributes of the 1100, how the European engineers designed it vs the Japanese engineers for the 1300, how Honda Europe considered it as a way to utilize some of the benefits of the Goldwing in a slimmed down version more suitable for the European roads, etc. I came away from the video thinking that he felt the ST1100 was a good bike, which lost some it's best qualities when it was redesigned.

I personally like most of his videos, even if I don't agree with all of them. I'm hoping at some point to watch the series he recently did where he documented his round the world trip on a Ducati Multistrada - with a camera man as pillion the whole time. Like him or not he is certainly a rider who brings a unique perspective to his videos.
 
My 1100 was dead steady, top box or not, but my 1300 would weave a bit with a top box installed, even when empty. The effect is aerodynamic because putting anything on the back seat (duffle bag, wife, even a light weight sleeping bag) to fill the space between the rider and the top box would instantly eliminate the weave.

Edit: forgot to mention that my ST1300 was a good 10 MPH faster than my 1100, 147 vs 134 (GPS measured). Maybe the 1100 would have weaved too if it could go as fast as the 1300.
 
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Uncle Phil said:
As I have said many times, I have experienced the ST1300 'Pan weave' on the Autobahn in Germany.
The key is I had to reach 120+ mph sustained not just run up for a little while and back down.

http://www.unclephil.us/Alps2008Day04.htm

And there are very few places in the USA where you can do that - maybe out in Nevada (or so I've been told. ;))
Loading, top trunks, tire inflation, etc. all affected it.
But I don't believe the officer that died testing the ST1300 was a 'rookie' rider by any means.

Mr. Google again -

  • Tests confirmed that the "Pan Weave" instability could be reproduced in civilian models at high speeds under certain conditions, with some civilian owners reporting experiencing it as well.
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Some of those few places are around Amarillo where you can light it up for miles of straight smooth pavement with no trees to obscure line of sight. And no troopers.
Excellent for "What'll She Do?"
Stop by sometime and I'll give you the tour.
 
Mophead said:
Some of those few places are around Amarillo where you can light it up for miles of straight smooth pavement with no trees to obscure line of sight. And no troopers.
Excellent for "What'll She Do?"
Stop by sometime and I'll give you the tour.
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BTDT on my ST1100s - and they didn't weave a bit! ;)
 
kiltman said:
I think I watched a different version of this episode. He was rather complementary to the 1100 pointing out the differences between the 1100 and 1300, the geometry of the two, the differences in handling…I thought he was impressed with the timing belt and the power the 1100 had. Unfortunately pulled up the one article one pulls up on every google search for a 1300… it would have been better if he debunked it, that would have made it a better video. However here we are…..
I wish the owner of the 1100 had replaced the right bulb of the headlight before filming it, other than that looked like a nice 99-02 ABSII.
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Those bulbs are hell to replace. Rather do a timing belt honest to god.
 
The headline didn’t match the content. For the St1300 in use at the time, and following the fatality, there was a scathing statement, I believe from the judge, which is where the title of this thread came from. Although Honda denied responsibility, that wasn’t the verdict, and around the same time Honda’s addendum to the 2002/2003 manual included a section detailing the very specific tightening sequence required for some engine/frame bolts. There was a new swing arm bolt which made use of shims presumably to get the exact tightness. Some of the instructions required tightening to one torque, then slackening and tightening to a different torque. Others required tightening to one torque then using tape markers to indicate an angular increase to reach the required tightness.

Those changes are probably included in the later manual, but the differences between the 2002/2003 manual and the 2004 addendum made interesting reading, especially given the details of the accident.

According to one report, there was a tester who insisted that every single ST1300 that came off the production line had to be given his approval before it could be released for sale. He apparently tested every single machine. The report I read was written by the tester himself. A chap from the uk. I did have a link to it, but I wouldn’t know where to look now.

But both my 1100s and both of my 1300s have never shown any signs of this behaviour- but I tend to stick to speed limits, although I did take it up to 100mph on the German autobahns, when that was legal. The front end felt a bit light, and I didn’t like it, so dropped back to 90. I’m sure that was in my head not a bike issue.
 
That video should be called "A serious threat to intelligence". It has been documented for well over a decade. The bikes are no longer made. The conditions to induce it are specific. Some Beemer lover has a burr up his arse and just can't move on, or some Gennial X/Z just needed to get clicks on his site, which I refuse to comply.
 
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