If Honda asked for input on a new ST what would you suggest?

Blrfl

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Losing 100 pounds would sure add to the giddy-yup without doing anything with the engine to increase power.
Where would you shed the weight? Everything on this bike is overbuilt, and shedding weight may shed some of the bulletproof qualities we like in this thing.

Throttle-by-wire is becoming the de-facto standard way of throttle control in autos and light trucks and some modern motorcycles.
I'm not usually one to shy away from computerizing everything, but I think I'm starting to draw the line at throttle-by-wire.

A few weeks ago, I was reviewing some material related to a lawsuit against Toyota that stemmed from a fatal unintended acceleration incident in 2007. Long story short, an expert witness was allowed to review the software in the ECM for the car and wrote a report on what he found. I read the report and slides that accompanied it, and the word damning isn't strong enough. It was actually possible on that car for the task that reads the pedal position to die and the task that set the throttle not notice and for the watchdog hardware not to notice either. This results in the engine continuing to run as if the throttle hadn't moved. To make matters worse, the software that reads the state of the brake pedal wouldn't force the throttle closed unless the driver took his foot completely off the brake, which is not something people in panic situations tend to do. Honda doesn't have a history of having the same kind of problems, but all it would take is for them to get sloppy.

There's something reassuring about being able to mechanically cut off the engine's air supply should the computer decide to do otherwise. It isn't like the standard dual-cable throttle mechanism is unreliable.

For cryin' out loud, move the oil filter.
There are bikes that have filters in easier-to-get-at places than the ST, but I wouldn't call the location on the ST bad by a long shot. Nobody's making filter relocation kits for the ST like they do for, say, the V-Star 1100.

Oh, and hydraulics for the valves would launch Honda ahead of the rest.
Yecch, no. Hydraulic lifters require a more complex cylinder head design that will mean more weight and more expense. They also don't move as fast as shimmed systems (or desmodromic, but let's not go there), which means valve timing at high revs will get squishier. You won't find them on the ST, FJR, Conk, K1600GT or pretty much anything else that revs high. The ST's cylinder heads are in the best location of any bike in the category except the R1200RT for doing the valve check, and once you've got the plastic off, it's not that big a job. I've seen the valve check procedure on the FJR, and it ain't pretty.

ABS, TC, cruise, etc.
ABS and TC were available on the 1100 two decades ago; TC was deleted from the 1300. If today's cars are any indication it's going to be unbelievably aggressive should they put it back in. Honda's not going to put cruise on any model that will be sold in the same market as the Gold Wing.

--Mark
 

ST_Jim

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I've had the same conversation with Honda reps at the Long Beach MC show and at the Honda display at Laguna Seca. The "diminishing market" comment is a self-fulfilling prophecy in Honda's case right? I mean, refuse to update (or even advertise) the existing model in any way for 10-12 years (whilst BMW, Yamaha, Kawasaki and others keep at it and then fail to introduce a 3rd generation machine at all. What would they expect to happen??

The rep I spoke to said the bigger segment is Adventure touring, to which I replied "OK, so where is Honda's adventure tourer then??" No answer. The newly announced Africa Twin may be a partial answer but so far it seems to be much more focused on dirt than what BMW, Yamaha, and KTM are offering, time will tell if it really qualifies as any kind of tourer.

Seems like, with the exception of Motocross and sport bikes (and they haven't done a hell of a lot new with the latter either) Honda has lost it's confidence to compete directly with anyone else. And before someone points out the new RC213 road bike - that one doesn't count, reportedly costing north of $100K.


I bet the NM4 is a really hot seller for Honda. ;)

Meanwhile they try to milk out the Gold Wing platform with the F6B (why not just buy a REAL wing?) and the funky new Valkyrie. They really need to freshen the Gold Wing. And oh, the CTX1300 is flying out the doors also...

I just think the Africa Twin is a little too late to be the savior they are hoping for. And as you said, they need something a little more street oriented.

I fear for Honda's future. The local Simi Valley dealer was bought out by the Harley dealer and moved to Moorpark. And pushing Can-Am in a big way. Come to think of it Honda's auto division seems to be loosing sales also...
 
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...I fear for Honda's future. The local Simi Valley dealer was bought out by the Harley dealer and moved to Moorpark. And pushing Can-Am in a big way. Come to think of it Honda's auto division seems to be loosing sales also...
I hear you. I was up at the Honda dealer Friday. This is a largish multi-line dealer with an odd mix of Honda, Suzuki, Triumph, Victory, Can Am, and Royal Enfield. Normally, most of the bikes on the floor are Hondas, but not Friday. Way more Triumphs on display and the Honda lineup was uninspiring. One Gold Wing, one CB-1100, a couple CBRs, a few dirt bikes and a three of those 500/700 beginner bikes.
 
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Where would you shed the weight? Everything on this bike is overbuilt, and shedding weight may shed some of the bulletproof qualities we like in this thing.

--Mark
You're right Mark, you can't pare 100 lbs off a bike like the ST-1300 and keep the characteristics that make it a sport tourer. Just look at the competition, the only bike that is close to 100 lbs lighter is the Moto Guzzi Norge and it isn't nearly as capable as the competition. Heck, my 1983 CB1100F weighs in at 550 lbs and the new CB1100 is close to that and both are naked bikes. Even the Triumph Tiger 800 weighs a tad over 500 lbs WITHOUT bags or trunk.
 

Raven

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I'm sorry, the only popcorn smiley available is the one from 2012. I'm working on a new popcorn smiley however, for economic and business reasons, I'm focusing my popcorn smiley product line towards 3rd world countries because there's more volume and overall profit associated with that segment. It's also a smaller popcorn smiley with not as much popcorn but just as much fun. I did release a retro-popcorn smiley however it's more money and a bit space-age looking so not sure how that will go over. Once I reap all the profits I can from the smaller popcorn smiley niche, I will consider jumping back into the development/production of an updated popcorn smiley for here.
Yep, that's why we keep coming back. .... :D
 

ST1100Y

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Where would you shed the weight? Everything on this bike is overbuilt, and shedding weight may shed some of the bulletproof qualities we like in this thing.
A BIG +1 on this Mark...

Besides that the weight is assigned for safety and comfort...
 
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Latecomer to this thread . . .

FJR is the same way. It's a little, but just a little, lighter than an ST, but about the only way to pare 100 pounds from it is to built a lot of parts from unobtainium. If it had been easy to reduce the weight, the factory would have done it.

Ride by wire? Love it. It gives you electronic cruise control without resorting to a lot of vacuum plumbing.

Traction control? I have never (yet) needed mine, but if you have ABS and EFI, it's a low cost option to add.

Valve check? The PAIR plumbing makes that a bit of a PITA, but the service intervals are not that often - every 26,000 miles. And you can always remove the plumbing.

Hydraulic lifters? No. Cost and complexity. And are they even suitable for a high revving, OHC engine?

Inverted forks? <shrug> We have rather porky (650 - 700 lbs.) sport tourers. Is a small reduction in unsprung weight going to make that much difference?

Six pot brakes up front? Another <shrug>. Good four piston brakes will exceed traction limits of the front tire. And if you are riding fast enough to overheat your brakes, you are riding too fast.

Six speed gear box? Nice to have, but I would rather have an overdrive.

What I really wanted last year when I started motorcycle shopping was an updated NT. I don't really need a 650 lb., 130 hp, 150 mph motorcycle.
 

thekaz

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I am not a fan of the 18" tire.
An St redesign could have alotta things BUT for me I want cheap. Plus adding gear is easy and WAY WAY to much fun some days
 

Blrfl

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Ride by wire? Love it. It gives you electronic cruise control without resorting to a lot of vacuum plumbing.
The Audiovox UltraCruise II, which replaced the CCS-100, uses an electric servo, so the only link would be mechanical.

See post #63 for some additional thoughts on ride-by-wire.

--Mark
 
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After experiencing issues on another performance vehicle I owned ... as in I got rid of it ... I am no fan of fly by wire. However, I still do not understand why the ST1300 did not include hydraulic lifters. If you were to compare the ST1300 V4 internals with the Cadillac Northstar engine, you will find a lot of similarities ... except the Nortstar has hydraulic lifters.
 

veefore

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I am not a fan of the 18" tire.
An St redesign could have alotta things BUT for me I want cheap. Plus adding gear is easy and WAY WAY to much fun some days
I have to believe that the 18" does positive things for geometry and tire wear.......my friend has had two FJR's from new and ridden aggressively he got about 3k from the front oem tires
 
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veefore

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And a cast iron stomach!!:D
 
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You're right Mark, you can't pare 100 lbs off a bike like the ST-1300 and keep the characteristics that make it a sport tourer. Just look at the competition, the only bike that is close to 100 lbs lighter is the Moto Guzzi Norge and it isn't nearly as capable as the competition. Heck, my 1983 CB1100F weighs in at 550 lbs and the new CB1100 is close to that and both are naked bikes. Even the Triumph Tiger 800 weighs a tad over 500 lbs WITHOUT bags or trunk.
Off the Honda website: Curb weight - 730 pounds.
Off the Yamaha site (FJR): Wet weight - 637 pounds.

Both bikes in the same configuration (all fluids, full fuel tank, etc.).

The FJR is not weak, uses aluminum for welded perimeter frame and aluminum swing arm. I don't have suggestions as to where the ST could lose weight, just citing an example.

Dan
 
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After experiencing issues on another performance vehicle I owned ... as in I got rid of it ... I am no fan of fly by wire. However, I still do not understand why the ST1300 did not include hydraulic lifters. If you were to compare the ST1300 V4 internals with the Cadillac Northstar engine, you will find a lot of similarities ... except the Nortstar has hydraulic lifters.
Correct. The system I am referring to is rpm unlimited as well. Yes, the system adds weight, increases engine height and will cost more. My Nighthawk S was not compromised by the system whatsoever:



One of the best features of that fine motorcycle BTW.

Dan
 
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Latecomer to this thread . . .

Ride by wire? Love it. It gives you electronic cruise control without resorting to a lot of vacuum plumbing.

Traction control? I have never (yet) needed mine, but if you have ABS and EFI, it's a low cost option to add.
Yeah, I love mine too. It is the closest thing to perfect throttle control I have experienced on an EFI vehicle. TBW is pervasive in autos and light trucks, has been the situation for years. It is one of the best ways that manufacturers can comply with ever more stringent EPA regs. The two drive modes on the Feej are the bomb. Those that have not experienced often poo-poo this nifty feature but I love it. I could have used TC a few years ago when I hit some diesel fuel while gently accelerating out of a slow corner and the rear end kicked out to full lock. I saved it but I would have bet $1,000 in the first billionth of a second that I was going down (high or low side).

Electronic integrated cruise control is simply a few lines of software code, a push button on-off switch and a rocker switch, pocket change really. TBW also makes it nearly impossible to install an after-market cruise based on the method of throttle control.

And to those that concern themselves with the safety and reliability of such systems? Since the Gen III FJRs have been introduced, nary an issue worth worrying about in the last 2 1/2 years of production. Same with the Tenere. It is worth noting that Yamaha spent years developing and perfecting their sophisticated YCC-T (throttle-by-wire) and Traction Control systems on their high-end international GP racers (as did many other brands) and intelligently moved these technologies out to their flagship motorcycles (FJR and Tenere being two of these) with outstanding success.

Dan
 
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I have to believe that the 18" does positive things for geometry and tire wear.......my friend has had two FJR's from new and ridden aggressively he got about 3k from the front oem tires
The defacto-standard size for the big irons is 17" front rim diameter. 18" is a very uncommon rim size. I'll get 15,000-20,000 miles out of my front PR4 on my FJR. OEM tires are best described as rim protectors.

Dan
 

JPKalishek

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alas, Honda seems content to lose customers to their competitors. They seem to be like the Cable Co.s They lose more and more customers because they don't update what they have, and charge a lot for what they have, then drop out of areas because "no one is buying from us there".

My wish list:
Self canceling turn signals (how long have those been around now?)
Bit less weight (these things will never be lightweights, but quite possible)
updated suspension
that 6th gear (wish I had it on the 1100)

And, as I am looking at a move to WI/MI, snow tires! (okay, just kidding)
 
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Off the Honda website: Curb weight - 730 pounds.
Off the Yamaha site (FJR): Wet weight - 637 pounds.

Both bikes in the same configuration (all fluids, full fuel tank, etc.).

The FJR is not weak, uses aluminum for welded perimeter frame and aluminum swing arm. I don't have suggestions as to where the ST could lose weight, just citing an example.

Dan
There's lots of reasons why the ST weighs more than the FJR, the V4 engine being one of the biggest. I'm not sure I'd want to give that up to save 10-15 lbs. After that, you'd have to pare a pound here and two lbs. there to reduce the weight by the remaining 78 lbs. and each change would diminish the ST-1300 in some way. You could eliminate about 12 lbs of fuel and maybe a pound or two of fuel tank by reducing the fuel capacity of the ST-1300 to that of the FJR, but who'd want to do that? Then you could probably pare 5-7 lbs. off the ST-1300 by reducing the size of the fairing and windscreen to that of the FJR, but then you'd diminish that wonderful weather protection it provides. The bottom line is that there isn't 100 lbs. to be had without changing what the ST-1300 is.
 
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The FJR is a great bike and may be my next bike but the ST is better for me in some aspects. One is the ST leans more toward touring than sport. I think the extra weight helps in that regard. The FJR feels smaller (almost too small) and more flickable but that is not better for me. I prefer planted/solid.

The only things I see a need to change on the ST;

1. Add Cruise
2. Update the gauges and improve gauge visibility.
3. Self cancelling signals.

I do not want a 6th gear. I think Honda nailed it with this 5 speed.



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I would be happy if Honda did exactly what Yamaha has done with the FJR ... which is why I am looking at a new FJR. Or even better ... incorporate some of the electronic magic that is in the '15 R-1 ... Yamaha Motorcycles is leaving Honda Motorcycles in the rear view mirror ... in every way... The last great Honda was the 98-01 VFR ... which I still own.

(I would already have a FJR in my garage except my wife loves the ST...mostly because of the Rick Mayer saddle... )
 
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