100% Failure on Leak down Test

This whole thing just irritates me from a personal and professional level. The fact that you are unsure of what's going on tells me that your service writer isn't taking the time to explain everything to you to the point you understand what's going on. Besides the excessive amount of dirt on his lift, what concerns me also is that the other technician (who just quit) obviously wasn't keeping notes on what diagnostic steps he took, which is crucial for the warranty process and if it's nessesary to contact the Honda tech line later. Notes from the technician should be a dealer requirement.

My recommendation: Whether you are technically savvy or not, when they call you or you stop by, ask a lot of questions. Make sure you understand everything that is going on and make them explain it until you understand. That is the service writer's job and don't let him make you believe otherwise. As I mentioned above, diagnostic notes are very important and should be documented. This includes them being on your copy of the paperwork. Don't sign or pay anything until you make sure that your invoice not only includes the three "C's" (Complaint, Cause, and Correction) but also how they came to determine the cause. (Make sure you understand the notes too) This is important because if you have any issues in the future and, for whatever reason, you have no access to the original tech or dealership, you can pull out the invoice with the notes to give to whomever is working on it. Far too often, dealers (both private and factory) are not including detailed notes with the invoice. It simply states "Customer Complaint" & "We replaced this". Demand the information.

A big one.....if they tore down your bike further than needed or unnessesarily, you are NOT liable to pay for the extra labor. DO NOT let them make you think you are.

I apologize if I sound all uppity. I work on the opposite side of the counter and am concerned that if they did indeed jump the gun on the diagnostics and realize that they aren't going to get paid by warranty, they may try putting the blame (cost) to you wrongly. I'm also concerned that they may try to cut some corners. I don't want to scare you or have you go in guns a-blazing but you definitely need to keep your eyes open and protect yourself. In the dealer's defense, give them a chance to make the situation right as it sounds as if they were blindsided by the tech quitting abruptly. If you got any questions about the warranty or dealer operations, shoot me a PM.
 
CABINPETE said:
I really don't see anything wrong with it. Hard to tell but in the top photo the intake valve on the left might show something but I think it's just the photo. Because your bike was parked when running and then would not start the next day I find it hard to understand the dealers reasoning for what was done. This should have been diagnosed long before the engine was stripped. It almost seems the tech did this as a FU to the dealer he worked for.
The only plus I see in this is thank God the tech wasn't a surgeon.
This should be used as a learning experience for all who participate in this forum.
If you're having a problem with your bike post it here first, the knowledge base here is high and this can help in your decisions before taking it to a dealer. Warranty or not.
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:plus1:

Ed, you must have the patience of a saint because if this were my bike I would have blown an aneurysm by now. I can't believe any kind of catastrophic engine damage could occur overnight without the engine running. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with that engine other than the fact it's in a million pieces now.

Yes, there's a little bit of carbon in there but not likely a problem of any kind. It'll be interesting to see what the final outcome is. You have my sympathy...good luck.
 
The buildup on the pistons wouldn't cause the symptoms you describe, and the valves look fine to me. Good luck. I think you're going to need it.

If the dealer doesn't have your engine back together and working by the end of the week, I'd call Honda and make a complaint about the dealer. Get the Honda regional rep out there.

I don't think the mechanic had a clue, and it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't get fired instead of quit.
 
What bike doesn't have carbon buildup?! They all are going to look like that after a few years. If the SM keeps insisting this, then have him produce photos or other proof that most top ends look pristine after a few years. He won't be able to do it. He is FOS!!!
 
I vote for the starter, impulse coupling or chain. There's no way you'd have 4 cylinders fail a leak-down test, unless there was a giant hole in each piston, or the valves are all bent. I'd even suspect their tool or the technician, before I'd pull the heads. Get a 2nd opinion elsewhere.
 
STPaulK said:
What bike doesn't have carbon buildup?! They all are going to look like that after a few years. If the SM keeps insisting this, then have him produce photos or other proof that most top ends look pristine after a few years. He won't be able to do it. He is FOS!!!
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Based off my experience, the service writer just through that statement out there to be able to say something other than "I don't know". Admittedly, most motorcycle owners are not familiar with the inner working of their motors nor what it looks like inside. Carbon build up can look shocking to someone who's never seen it before. I've seen plenty of service writers who try to dazzle people with BS and big technical words.
 
SoloTotoCoyote said:
Based off my experience, the service writer just through that statement out there to be able to say something other than "I don't know". Admittedly, most motorcycle owners are not familiar with the inner working of their motors nor what it looks like inside. Carbon build up can look shocking to someone who's never seen it before. I've seen plenty of service writers who try to dazzle people with BS and big technical words.
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Sounds like he's also throwing the carbon statement out there to try and blame the owner. Lack of maintenance, oil used, gas used.
Show me an engine without some carbon buildup and I'll show you an engine that's burning coolant.

Another question I would have for the dealer is why, if he knew the tech was going to quit, did he give him this job?

I would be very concerned as to who will put it together, nothing difficult, but I see a few left over parts!

This whole thing stinks.
 
CABINPETE said:
.......Another question I would have for the dealer is why, if he knew the tech was going to quit, did he give him this job?....
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I have doubts they actually knew. General rule at dealers is not to give a tech who was leaving anything but easy stuff for this very reason.

On the other hand, they may have known and thought it was going to be a real easy diagnostic. I have my doubts though.
 
Perhaps a totally incompetent tech - he quit because he knew there was no way he was going to be able to put it back together in working condition. I am familiar with hiring people who claim competence and perform magnificently for the training period and quit as soon as the they are expected to perform on their own.
 
When you tried to start the bike, what sounds did you hear? is it possible a leaky fuel injector could have filled a cylinder and broke the starter gear in the first second of trying to start the bike?
That certainly wouldn't explain 100% failure of a leakdown test on every cylinder, nothing but technician error would explain that. I'm betting the tech tore the head off, realized in horror there wasn't a damn thing wrong with the engine and that he made a huge misdiagnosis, and quit out of frustration/embarrassment.
 
I will utterly guarantee the "100% leak test failure" is bogus. At least one of those two cylinders is fine, I think they both are.

I'd be crazy, would have tipped stuff over in the dealership by now...:D
 
The little amount of carbon buildup is NOT the cause of a 100% failure on a leakdown test. That buildup looks normal for a good running motor.

As for the mechanic that quit, he probably took the job and left it like that to eff the owner, you were just the victim there.

I just hope the dealership says the work performed IS under warranty and not try to push the blame on you.

Good Luck, I REALLY mean that





EdsST said:
Latest Drama - the technician that was working on my bike has quit - right in the middle of the job. Apparently, from what the service manager says, he knew he was going to. Why did he even take on the job if he knew he was going to quit. Now somebody has to come behind him and first determine what he's done and them try and solve that issue before he can even start to work on the problem. :(

Anyway While I was there I took some pics of the bike and the head and piston

http://api.photoshop.com/home_aed3c...be-px-assets/7b02cadab94a4ac68742d20cc4e7d948

http://api.photoshop.com/home_aed3c...be-px-assets/29402b64b3584f999aa282ab3ff98835

http://api.photoshop.com/home_aed3c...be-px-assets/0d0070e1bf3748f4a889c006d024a663

http://api.photoshop.com/home_aed3c...be-px-assets/30da896c824341c7bff97a07a8ed2ad4

As you can see its totally torn down, the service manager talked about the carbon build up on the pistons and heads. Don't know if that is issue - he seems to think so, the other service manager says he thinks that some how the timing has jumped (timing chains weren't broke - thinks maybe a tensioner failed). But now we are kinda starting over - with a new technician going to work on it
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This story actually makes me glad that my bike no longer is under warranty.
 
You have clearly gotten caught in the middle of a dealership internal issue... and your bike is inappropriately in pieces due to clear incompetence. Document, document, & document (those pictures are a great start as they tell a million words).

Do not let the SM put you off. Talk to the site manager or owner if you can identify them. Be polite but very insistent. I don't know how you find out who it is, but you need to get above the dealer to a Honda representateive, quickly.

I feel for you, sorry for the painful situation.
 
You need to contact American Honda. Tell them the situation. Expalin that your bike was torn down for ,in your opinion, no reason. They are pretty good about getting on the dealer and geting things done.
 
Looking at the photos, I can't see any reason that bike didn't have good compression. None of the valves seem to be bent like the ones in Alan Hunt's ST1100 after the timing belt snapped. http://www.stocrallies.com/st-riders/index.php?topic=3264.0. As you can see, the bent valves are pretty obvious. In Alan's case all 16 were bent and this would of course cause all four cylinders to fail a leak down test.

The ST1100 has a single timing belt running all four cams, unlike the ST1300 which has a separate timing chain for the left and right banks. Having both chains fail simultaneously, which would have to be the case for all cylinders to fail, seems about as likely as winning the lottery.

I am in shock and awe at the level of incompetency demonstrated by that dealer/tech. Things like this are the reason I became a resolute do-it-yourselfer!
 
"Things like this are the reason I became a resolute do-it-yourselfer!"
ABSOLUTELY! since about 8 years ago I do everything I'm capable of on all my vehicles. I got tired of professionals screwing stuff up and misdiagnosing problems, hell I can do that on my way to fixing stuff, why pay for it? He did the right thing bringing it in because it's a warranty issue, though he definately should have checked in here first - it might have been a really simple fix after some troubleshooting help.
 
There's a cautionary tale here. If you're not mechanically knowledgeable the first thing you should do is report the symptoms on this Forum, and give this group time to toss it around. You'll be forearmed and more able to speak knowledgeably with the service department.
 
Best thing is to determine what the problem is yourself before involving the dealership. I'd pull the plugs and turn over the engine with the back wheel, check the battery, etc. to narrow it down.
I cringe at the thought of letting the dealership open my engine up unless I was sure they would do a proper job.

Asking them what is wrong is like giving them a blank check.

Good luck and hope the story has a happy ending and you get back on the road soon.
 
Good Luck with it Ed, if you think I can be of any help feel free to call. If you've lost my number PM and I'll give you a shout.

Regards,
 
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