40 Amp Alternator disaster (ongoing....)

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Pre Pandemic the '91 ST had it's burnt out stator removed and replaced with a working one, new wires and heatproof/waterproof sleeving fitted.Connections soldered and suitably insulated and weatherproofed with self amalgamating tape . All was good until now , when the return leg of a 100 mile run showed a low reading on the voltmeter. Made it home with an indicated 11 volts. On examination, the field windings were ok but three phase output was showing around 2 or 3 volts ac across each phase (phase wires disconnected from reg/rectifier. ) So....40 Amp upgrade commenced. Fleabay supplied the baseplate and shaft, bought and fitted new bearings. Smaller bearing is a standard size so easy SKF replacement from my local bearing shop. Larger bearing is only made under licence for Honda and Suzuki so not available except from main dealer !
Sorry this is a long post . Stripped the ST and thanks to previously copper greased threads, removed the stator with ease. Not so the main alternator body, which had to be soaked in penetrating oil and levered off (although the mounting bolts came off with clean threads). Having read many posts on doing the upgrade I decided on an ‘upgrade’ of the ‘Frenstick’ method, using a splined adapter (perfect fit), borrowed from a locking wheel nut removal kit. Cleaned the engine mating surface and base plate, fitted new O ring , oiled the bearings and applied moly/oil mix to gear meshing area and O ring etc..base plate went through the frame ok and onto the engine. Thin gear meshed with the engine gear , and turning the spline tool clockwise the baseplate moved in a bit more but not as far as the O ring. While keeping pressure on the splines I tapped around the centre of the casting with a wooden hammer shaft (as many have described previously) but it didn’t go in ! Knowing the gear was meshed ok (as I could turn the engine with the splined tool) I decided to put the old alternator mounting bolts in, finger tight, and GENTLY pull the base plate in evenly to mate with the engine. BIG MISTAKE. A slight turn on each bolt seemed ok but on the second round , I heard a loud crack.....you guessed it , a mounting lug broke off the base plate ! This was not brute force but maybe some ignorance involved. Everything removed to start over. Have examined mating surfaces in the engine and all is good. Don’t want to break my replacement base plate so should I adopt the ‘Lewis pin’ method this time in conjunction with the spline tool putting light pressure against the spring loading to ease removal of the pin when the base plate is fully seated (somehow) . How tight a fit is the baseplate going in ? Any thoughts from those ‘in the know’ would be gratefully accepted. Kind regards Davemac
 

John OoSTerhuis

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BIG MISTAKE. A slight turn on each bolt seemed ok but on the second round , I heard a loud crack.....you guessed it , a mounting lug broke off the base plate !
Bummer, Dave. If it’s any consolation, you’re not the firST to try this and crack the new plate. Obviously, the second split gear’s splines were not meshed with the flywheel‘s splines.
should I adopt the ‘Lewis pin’ method this time
Yes. Your ‘pin’ should align the two split gears’ splines and the new alternator shaft assembly should slide ‘home’ without excessive force. DON’T force it!
How tight a fit is the baseplate going in
It’s tight. Lube the surfaces and o-ring. Note: the new base plate will be fully flush with the bosses surrounding the bolt holes on the engine case when correctly fitted, but there will be a slight gap elsewhere around the circumference which is NORMAL.

HTH

John [standing by the keyboard]
 
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Davemac
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Bummer, Dave. If it’s any consolation, you’re not the firST to try this and crack the new plate. Obviously, the second split gear’s splines were not meshed with the flywheel‘s splines.

Yes. Your ‘pin’ should align the two split gears’ splines and the new alternator shaft assembly should slide ‘home’ without excessive force. DON’T force it!

It’s tight. Lube the surfaces and o-ring. Note: the new base plate will be fully flush with the bosses surrounding the bolt holes on the engine case when correctly fitted, but there will be a slight gap elsewhere around the circumference which is NORMAL.

HTH

John [standing by the keyboard]
Bummer, Dave. If it’s any consolation, you’re not the firST to try this and crack the new plate. Obviously, the second split gear’s splines were not meshed with the flywheel‘s splines.

Yes. Your ‘pin’ should align the two split gears’ splines and the new alternator shaft assembly should slide ‘home’ without excessive force. DON’T force it!

It’s tight. Lube the surfaces and o-ring. Note: the new base plate will be fully flush with the bosses surrounding the bolt holes on the engine case when correctly fitted, but there will be a slight gap elsewhere around the circumference which is NORMAL.

HTH

John [standing by the keyboard]
Hi John, this alternator upgrade still has the better of me, a friend turned out a ‘Lewis pin’ fitted to base assembly, gears aligned, cable exiting sump plug hole, offered up base assembly to engine, and it STill won’t go in more than the O ring. Not using any force, as you advised . Will try and post a photo of my lack of progress !
1656147144822.jpeg
1656147232487.jpeg1656147144822.jpeg1656147232487.jpeg
 

ST1100Y

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No "Lewis Pin" when I did the job on my '94 Marshal ST...

Instead I stuck a large 1/2" drive hex-bit with a 1/2" extension into the shaft splines (where the alternator axle would go, you could use a wooden stick cross-bored with some shaft/thick nail inserted to form a T-wrench), once I felt the first sprocket meshing I simply twisted the shaft with my tool to overcome the spring tension so the second sprocket slipped on... pushed the plate fully in by hand only, having cleaned the whole area thoroughly, O-ring and surfaces lubed with silicone grease eased the job...
 
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Davemac
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No "Lewis Pin" when I did the job on my '94 Marshal ST...

Instead I stuck a large 1/2" drive hex-bit with a 1/2" extension into the shaft splines (where the alternator axle would go, you could use a wooden stick cross-bored with some shaft/thick nail inserted to form a T-wrench), once I felt the first sprocket meshing I simply twisted the shaft with my tool to overcome the spring tension so the second sprocket slipped on... pushed the plate fully in by hand only, having cleaned the whole area thoroughly, O-ring and surfaces lubed with silicone grease eased the job...
Am back to trying the ‘modified fren stick’ method using a splined tool with no success, can feel the gears moving slightly to mesh , but still can’t seat the base plate....aaargh !
1656153050565.jpeg
 

ST1100Y

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Possible that it's not the base plate that's stuck, but the tip of the damper shaft not aligned with the bearing inside the crankcase?
I'd pull the whole assy and inspect the cavity...
 
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Davemac
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Possible that it's not the base plate that's stuck, but the tip of the damper shaft not aligned with the bearing inside the crankcase?
I'd pull the whole assy and inspect the cavity...
Have inspected and cleaned both base plate cavity and end bearing cavity, pic shows well greased bearing cavity but there seems to be a pin/dowel at the 12 o’clock position? Is that normal ? . The old alt came out but was very tight , have checked bearing diameters comparing old and new , both identical ! Am running out of ideas (and patience )
1656155566259.jpeg

1656155867684.jpeg
 

tnbill

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It appears that it is going in cocked. The base is deeper in @ 2 o clock than @ 7 o clock. That tellsm me the gears are meshing correctly.
 
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Davemac
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It appears that it is going in cocked. The base is deeper in @ 2 o clock than @ 7 o clock. That tellsm me the gears are meshing correctly.
It’s just lying loose in the pic , goes on straight , turn the spring loaded gear with the spline tool but won’t go any further than about 1mm before the O ring.....really frustrating. Have tried another correct bearing in the casing, went in a bit ok but didn’t want to fit it all the way in (retrieving would be a pain). Thought this would be the easy step..! Have been trying to fit this base plate for days now !
 

sirbike

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Sounds like a gear mesh issue but to be sure, will the base plate by itself disassembled slide into position?
With this job becoming such a hassle when it shouldn’t be, I’ll suggest dropping the oil pan for as complete a view as possible.
 

sirbike

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Pan off would give you easy access to the gears. Line up the gears with a pin, use an appropriately gentle tool to wedge the gears that last little bit into alignment and send it all home.
This is not a method that I have used but it is what I would consider given the difficulty you are experiencing.
 

Smudgemo

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I haven't done this particular job so I can't offer much help other than to encourage you to just walk away when frustration mounts. The parts will fit unless there is something wrong with them, so there is something going on you haven't solved for yet. Take a walk, come back to it tomorrow, whatever.
 
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Davemac
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Sounds like a gear mesh issue but to be sure, will the base plate by itself disassembled slide into position?
With this job becoming such a hassle when it shouldn’t be, I’ll suggest dropping the oil pan for as complete a view as possible.
Base plate with end bearing slides in no problem (with gears removed) so must be a meshing issue. Really don’t want to remove the oil pan if at all possible. Remember my pals with seized and broken bolts etc..
 

John OoSTerhuis

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Pulling the oil pan is a last ditch plan, IMO.

Is the alternator shaft assembly correctly assembled? IOW, is the ‘stack’ too tall? Thinking out loud here…
 
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Davemac
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Base plate with end bearing slides in no problem (with gears removed) so must be a meshing issue. Really don’t want to remove the oil pan if at all possible. Remember my pals with seized and broken bolts etc..
Have tried three different base plates , with gears none of them slide in while aligning the split gear with the splined tool. Have went for several ‘walks’ but every time I come back the base plate is still not in ... lol . Can’t give up but fast running out of ideas .
 
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Davemac
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Pulling the oil pan is a last ditch plan, IMO.

Is the alternator shaft assembly correctly assembled? IOW, is the ‘stack’ too tall? Thinking out loud here…
Have checked and re-checked everything is as it should be, have compared stack height to the original one and it’s the same. Have three base plate units, including the one I broke , all have the same ‘not meshing’ issue. Can feel the spring loaded gear move when using the splined tool but none of them move in to the fully fitted position. Doesn’t make sense....
 

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Davemac
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For John's stack height question and thinking out loud, is that specialty bearing the right size and fully seated? I have one in the attic I can get out and measure, but these links indicate 10.5mm:
The special bearing is a genuine dealer part, fits behind the three bolt locating plate and is fitted correctly in the base plate casting. Other end is a standard size (have fitted an SKF) identical in spec to the original Honda part but really good quality. Still trying...but no success (yet)...
 

Paul

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Have inspected and cleaned both base plate cavity and end bearing cavity, pic shows well greased bearing cavity but there seems to be a pin/dowel at the 12 o’clock position? Is that normal ? . The old alt came out but was very tight , have checked bearing diameters comparing old and new , both identical ! Am running out of ideas (and patience )
1656155566259.jpeg

1656155867684.jpeg
Hard to tell what is going on with this picture, all the grease obscures things. Any chance you raised a burr inside the bearing bore with your first installation attempt?

Sorry, missed post #13.
 
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