Another high speed wooble accident

Quote by DR. Brlfl MDFACP
And for God's sake, go have some pie.

Mark: Will you be my doctor, please? My doctor seems to think that pie is really not very good for me. Or at least not good for the pony keg I hide under my shirt....

I agree with your Japaneese corporate assessment. There have been some serious negotiations in the auto industry regarding just this issue. Does anyone remember the problems Bridgestone had in admitting tread seperation problems, and what it finally cost them? The COMPANY?

I like your theory about air flow, which probably makes it wrong. I do know that the Hayabusa flows air about as well as anything on the planet, and it doesn't look like the ST1300 at all!
 
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Does anyone remember the problems Bridgestone had in admitting tread seperation problems, and what it finally cost them? The COMPANY?
<snip>
Did you mean to say 'Firestone'? Bridgestone now owns Firestone. Yup, cost them a bundle. Lying often does.

Marshal
 
Lee and Burger, thanks for the info. Good to have an actual test to prove this. Basically ends any discussion on whether there is or isn't a problem. Going to do those suspension upgrades I have been putting off.
 
Oh my gosh I will sell mine right away!!!!!!!


NOT lets face it most dont seem to have this issue and so it must be something other than a stock issue .
IE weight airflow something .
I cruise 8 an 90 on the interstate all the time just to keep up or a little ahead of traffic. No wobbles no weave .
Topped it around 140 + per GPS and it was rock steady ( steady a lot morte then me ) It would be nice to know if it was something special done or not done but that info seems to always be lacking ..
I will still ride at the speed I think is safe for that time and not worry about it .
JMHO

I don't think the info is lacking, I just think we aren't interpeting the info correctly yet.

Like I said, I had it happen to me one time in 150 or more trips over 100 mph. I've been at high speed fully loaded with pillion, full saddle bags and trunk and a tank bag and it was rock steady. The one time it did happen the trunk had my wife's purse in it and the saddlebags were empty. The bike started weaving like I was trying to weave in and out of the dotted lines on the road. As soon as I let off the gas it stopped. I hadn't decellerated more than a few mph. Now I wish I'd taken it back up again to see if it would do it again, but Katherine was on the back and I didn't want to experiment with her on board.

I do think its a stock bike issue because my bike is stock and it did it.
 
I experienced the weave for the first time after 15k of riding on my 2006 ST. I was one up, fully loaded for camping, small ice chest on rack, large heavy Moto Fizz bag on back seat. I was in Nevada and going 110mph, it just started weaving, no shake in the bars at all, I slowed down and after a few seconds it stopped at about 100mph. We had been cruising at 90 mph for quite awhile and everything was normal. I have had the bike over 120 many times and it was always rock steady. I had new Storms with less than 500 on them at 42 psi, steering head bearings just checked, rear preload at max ( adjusted for correct sag). I just wonder if adding the " weave recall parts", swingarm bearings and rear motor mounts would help. It sure would be nice if someone had the time and resources to find out.
 
I experienced the weave for the first time after 15k of riding on my 2006 ST. I was one up, fully loaded for camping, small ice chest on rack, large heavy Moto Fizz bag on back seat. I was in Nevada and going 110mph, it just started weaving, no shake in the bars at all, I slowed down and after a few seconds it stopped at about 100mph. We had been cruising at 90 mph for quite awhile and everything was normal. I have had the bike over 120 many times and it was always rock steady. I had new Storms with less than 500 on them at 42 psi, steering head bearings just checked, rear preload at max ( adjusted for correct sag). I just wonder if adding the " weave recall parts", swingarm bearings and rear motor mounts would help. It sure would be nice if someone had the time and resources to find out.

The "weave recall parts" has been discussed a few years ago now. They were a part of the swing-arm, where it connects to the chassis, and they were a recall for the 2002 pan in the UK. All subsequent Pans, including the ones made for the 2003 release here in the states, have the upgraded parts.

afaik, there's nothing else Honda has done (can do?).

Regards,
 
The "weave recall parts" has been discussed a few years ago now. They were a part of the swing-arm, where it connects to the chassis, and they were a recall for the 2002 pan in the UK. All subsequent Pans, including the ones made for the 2003 release here in the states, have the upgraded parts.

afaik, there's nothing else Honda has done (can do?).

Regards,

I'm not sure that's true. If you recall I started a thread some time ago about the visible difference between the swing arm pivots of European v NA ST1300's. Perhaps the NA bikes have different upgraded parts which might explain why there's been more reports of the weave from Europe. Although I find it interesting how many from NA are also saying they have experienced it.

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14081

Regards,
 
I'd forgotten about that thread Dave. It is interesting in many ways. An article I mentioned earlier had a good suggestion about lowering the front through the triple trees.

Said it would result in slower turn-in but make it more stable at speed. It would be easy to test, just be sure to put a scissors jack under the engine before loosening the forks in the trees. Get about 10 to 15mm sticking out of the top of both - measure to be sure both sides are the same! - and go test.

It seems logical it would help... don't have mine to test with though...

Regards,
 
Good suggestion to drop the forks, I would be very interested to hear some testing results from someone that has experienced the weave.

I wonder if lowering the forks a few mm would also make it less "loose" feeling in dirty air? I havent had a problem with the weave, nor with dirty air, so I'll be leaving the forks where they are. But I am curious.
 
HI
over in england the police stopped using st1300s and went back to old stock st1100s , i dont know what the outcome will be after being investigated , but i suspect it will show that it is to do with the way they carried all the equipment .
I have just returned from a trip from London across France to the spanish border 870 miles each way .I was fully loaded side bags , topbox , my 18yr son 135 lb me ( a bit on the heavy side ) 290 lb . On the way down it was very windy , but i cruised at 125mph no wobble or any problems , i slowed up a bit due to cross winds in places . on the way back no wind again 120 -130 mph no wobble , only real concern was coming out of a bend 75mph 3rd into 4th , full throttle , front lifted . ( rapid heartbeat ) but still no problems .
I guess what i am trying to say is you have to adjust to suit conditions , cross wind , overtaking high sided trucks ect,ect. and above all respect the power of the bike you are riding .
 
I have experienced the wobble for the first time on my trip to Westoc, it was mild and not close to being uncontrollable. It only occured in the dirty air behind a semi - starting at about 90-95 MPH. I have loaded my bike up in similar fashion on previous trips and have not experienced this wobble before. The only mod I have done to the suspension for this trip is adding Sonic 1.2 springs to the front. I know the sag and height are correct for the front and the rear. The wobble only accurs in the dirty air, I had the bike up to 128 MPH on the backroads with the same full load, and it was steady with no signs of wobble. I don't know if this adds anything valuable to the collective data on the subject, but my impression is that stiffening up the front end has pushed my bike closer to this wobble condition.
 
I have experienced the wobble for the first time on my trip to Westoc, it was mild and not close to being uncontrollable. It only occured in the dirty air behind a semi - starting at about 90-95 MPH. I have loaded my bike up in similar fashion on previous trips and have not experienced this wobble before. The only mod I have done to the suspension for this trip is adding Sonic 1.2 springs to the front. I know the sag and height are correct for the front and the rear. The wobble only accurs in the dirty air, I had the bike up to 128 MPH on the backroads with the same full load, and it was steady with no signs of wobble. I don't know if this adds anything valuable to the collective data on the subject, but my impression is that stiffening up the front end has pushed my bike closer to this wobble condition.

That 'wobble' is perfectly normal and felt on many fully faired bikes. It's not the same at all as the weave that can appear for no apparent reason. Sorry, but it's important not to confuse the two.

Regards,
 
HI
over in england the police stopped using st1300s and went back to old stock st1100s , i dont know what the outcome will be after being investigated , but i suspect it will show that it is to do with the way they carried all the equipment .

That's not strictly true... Some forces are still using the ST1300's but with very severe speed limits imposed on the riders (eg 80mph max.). Other forces have sent them back, others have sold them off through dealers. A few forces that still had ST1100's in service have kept them in service and others have gone for BMW's (Such as the Met.) with a few forces going for FJR's.

The investigation between the police and Honda is complete and there was no definitive conclusion reached. Honda do blame the radio equipment etc. which is ridiculous because even if it's heavy it weighs no more than a pillion passenger. The only thing they agreed on was that the ST1300 under certain circumstances will weave but they fell short of defining the circumstances. If they could have, then it would most likely have been fixable. This is precisely why many forces simply refused to continue using the ST1300's. The coroners report into the death of PC David Shreeve didn't help either, but then that was issued before the investigations were complete.

Regards,
 
:bump
Funny to read this, as today i did 230 kph(142.92 mph) [as read on my GPS], and took both my hands off the bars to see where this alledged "weave" comes from...couldn't find it!!! Bike is super stable. :capwin:
I've even ridden standin up for many miles, taking photos of the bikers riding with me at the local toy run, using my legs and body to steer and brake, and only fell off later that day when I was stationary at the fuel pumps...Go figure!!! :chrfl1::roll: :roll: :roll:
PS i've done over 50,000miles on mine in just over 2 years and I can't understand where this alledged "weave" problem comes from?????
 
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Some of my musings:

In my college days, we studied amplifiers, oscillators, and active filters. In the case of amplifiers, we wanted to have NEGATIVE feedback to enhance stability, while in oscillators and filters, we wanted to have POSITIVE feedback, but tuned to occur at a desired frequency -- it's frequency of resonance. The positive feedback is required to start and sustain the oscillations. The selection of resonant frequency in the filter is important to tune a desired radio station, for example.

In a system with positive feedback, the system's own response to its inputs causes the system to experience more of what's already affecting it. One common example of this is the squealing microphone/loudspeaker systems you may have heard years ago. (Modern systems can detect and eliminate the feedback before you hear it.) This is uncontrolled oscillations, due to positive feedback.

Now consider a "system" of a motorcycle, with rider, and two dissimilar spinning tires. If it's reaction to a bit of sideways/crosswise input (whether due to pavement irregularity or to crosswind/truck wash, or whatever) is to cause it to experience more of the same (whether that reaction is a compression of the suspension, flexing of windscreen, tire sidewalls, or frame, or something as complex as the air flowing around the windscreen, faring, and rider giving a bit of air blast on rider and/or the handlebars, or onto some part aft of the rider, or _whatever_), we may get the system to break into oscillation, with each cycle of oscillation feeding the next.

What we have is: Resonant oscillations.

It's interesting to me, though perhaps not significant, to note that Honda has limited the speed only of the ST1300P model to help to prevent occurrences of "the weave". We can only guess whether this has more to do with a higher regard for the health and welfare of the boys in blue, or whether they consider these two models to be different machines.


Don't overestimate the similarity in performance between the ST1300 and the ST1300P. Among the differences between a standard ST1300P in Police Service, and a "stock, civilian" ST1300 -- many of which change the way the bike interacts with the ground, and the airstream, and all of which have their own resonant frequencies:
Addition of warning/pursuit lights: front, side, and rear
(and many times in Europe, a light mast)
Siren speaker (usually on one side, only)
Fairing extenders
Rear equipment trunk
Antennas
"Cop" stuff under the covers, and/or on the body of the rider: Radios, flashlights, paperwork, manuals, flares, firearms, etc, etc.
Different switch housings, to accommodate more lights, siren, radio, etc.
Handlebar risers, to accommodate the switch housings (which also changes position of the rider, and the CG, which is itself often mentioned in relation to stability)
Different rate springs, front and rear.

Are there more differences? Do these differences make them "different enough"?

Quite a complex system to analyze.

Doug
 
I used to think that the recall done to the police and european bikes fixed the weave problem but now I'm wondering if this is true. Does anyone know if they still experience the weave in Europe?
 
I wonder if anyone has removed the bodywork and still felt the instability. I know a dealership or Honda isn't going to allow that mag to strip a bike and redo those tests but it is a thought. If it does go away start adding plastic back on untill you find the culprit or combo of culprits. Our bikes do have a pretty deep mouth behind that front fender or maybe the front fender itself. Just thinking out loud, Mike.
 
<quote>It's interesting to me, though perhaps not significant, to note that Honda has limited the speed only of the ST1300P model to help to prevent occurrences of "the weave". We can only guess whether this has more to do with a higher regard for the health and welfare of the boys in blue, or whether they consider these two models to be different machines.</quote>

this has been discussed a bit, and the thought was that our bikes (non p's), are suppose to be ridden at the posted speed limit. Honda has relinquished all liability by indicating in our owners manual to not exceed the posted speed limits.

not so for the P's, they can legally exceed that limit, thus the liability... and the governors on those bikes.

something to think about...

regards,
 
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