Bad Swing Arm bearings symptoms

[dduelin]

Yes, I have replaced the steering head bearings with tapered roller bearings. I thought that it was a reasonable diagnosis then. Finding the right torque for tapered bearing is not easy as you know, but they are not over tight, the self centering tendency is natural. It's really hard to be 100% certain as so many wires and brake hoses are involved in the movement.
As a matter of fact, I have replaced them as a way to troubleshoot the instability issue.
They have improved the handling of the bike but did not fix the pre-existing instability.
I will try to loosen them a bit to double check if it could improve anything.
Again, thank you for your help.

Yes, setting correct preload with tapered roller bearings can be hit or miss. It was for my ST1300. Fortunately Honda provides a value for effort required to move the bars so the preload can be correctly set for both OEM ball or aftermarket rollers. Following the service manual instructions for setting up OEM bearings I had much too much preload. I rode the bike and steering a straight line was near impossible. It was a hassle to disassemble the bars and top bridge several times progressively removing preload in order to get the pull value under 3.2 lbs but I was rewarded to get back to the sweet, light, neutral steering the ST has. Another benefit of new bearings at 96,000 miles was greatly reducing the high speed weave.

 

[shadowknows977]

Basic swing arm bearing info...hopefully useful?

 

[billo]

My experience with this bike is it's very sensitive to geometry. If the steering bearing is loose, the front "hunts" when approaching a full stop. If the bike is too low in the rear, the dreaded high speed wobble. A little too high or low in the rear and it either under or over steers. Swing arm bearings - I'm just taking a swing here - if they're loose, could drive shaft torque under throttle/no throttle explain steers left one way, steers right another? Comes and goes? Road conditions vs throttle usage?

 

[W0QNX]

Basic swing arm bearing info...hopefully useful?

Not much use for a ST1300 which does not have a swingarm through bolt. You can't pass a bolt thru the drive shaft in the center of the swingarm??????

ST1300 swingarm has tapered bearings which are like a cone shape bearing with a bearing seat in the swingarm and a bolt with a "plug" inserted on each side forcing the bearings inwards into the bearing seats.

If you take the "bolts" out of either side you can look into the bolt hole and see the bearings in the swingarm. This might even be done without dropping any other parts of the rear suspension. Chances are they look like new. It's not overly hard to drop the swingarm down and remove the bearings completely for inspection but the drive shaft would need to be pulled out of the Ujoint to do this.

I suggest the OP check that the headed bolt side is bottomed (snugged down) and the adjustable side is tightened down correctly (torqued).

 

[Sidekick]

Not much use for a ST1300 which does not have a swingarm through bolt. You can't pass a bolt thru the drive shaft in the center of the swingarm??????

ST1300 swingarm has tapered bearings which are like a cone shape bearing with a bearing seat in the swingarm and a bolt with a "plug" inserted on each side forcing the bearings inwards into the bearing seats.

If you take the "bolts" out of either side you can look into the bolt hole and see the bearings in the swingarm. This might even be done without dropping any other parts of the rear suspension. Chances are they look like new. It's not overly hard to drop the swingarm down and remove the bearings completely for inspection.

Thank you! This answers my question. I was worried about removing the locknut and pivot on both sides for inspection, as I feared the swing arm might drop or become misaligned.
As you said, I would be surprised to find anything wrong there, but it will give me the opportunity to lubricate the bearings anyway.

 

[W0QNX]

Thank you! This answers my question. I was worried about removing the locknut and pivot on both sides for inspection, as I feared the swing arm might drop or become misaligned.

Please review my post as I edited it.

 

[Sidekick]

Please review my post as I edited it.

I primarily want to check the torque settings, as I suspect a loose pivot bolt might be causing the instability. While defective bearings are less likely, it's still worth inspecting. Given the bike's age and my extensive troubleshooting, checking the torque seems like a logical next step.
It's always great to get some advice before doing something the wrong way, I appreciate your input, thank you.

 

[motornut]

Be sure to use the "pull Method" of adjusting the steering head bearings, too loose can be as destabilizing as too tight. There are three bearings in the rear axle. I have had one bearing go bad and the others were good under warranty. I had to replace the others. Not sure if it could cause instability though.

 

[Sidekick]

Be sure to use the "pull Method" of adjusting the steering head bearings, too loose can be as destabilizing as too tight. There are three bearings in the rear axle. I have had one bearing go bad and the others were good under warranty. I had to replace the others. Not sure if it could cause instability though.

I'll check the three of them, thanks.
I'm puzzled by the fluctuating nature of the instability, even when maintaining proper tire pressure and rear shock settings. A misaligned steering head bearing would likely cause consistent issues, while a loose swing arm pivot bolt could potentially move depending on shocks, load, and road conditions. While it's a speculative theory, it's the most likely explanation given my current understanding.
I have ordered the pivot socket tool and I will post my findings soon.

 

[dduelin]

Movement in the pivot bearings should be obvious by side to side and twisting manipulation of the rear wheel at 12 and 6 then 3 and 9 while on center stand. That’s how BMW owners check the crown bearing in the final drive. Play of just 1+ mm can be detected.

 

[Sidekick]

Movement in the pivot bearings should be obvious by side to side and twisting manipulation of the rear wheel at 12 and 6 then 3 and 9 while on center stand. That’s how BMW owners check the crown bearing in the final drive. Play of just 1+ mm can be detected.

May I ask you if you think if removing the rear wheel and shock are necessary to diagnose play in the swing arm?

 

[dduelin]

May I ask you if you think if removing the rear wheel and shock are necessary to diagnose play in the swing arm?

You get more leverage with the wheel in place. If you detect movement the wheel comes off to diagnose if the play is in the wheel or swing arm. I am very skeptical of rear wheel bearing problems causing intermittent symptoms and doing so without bearing noise. While there are 4 bearings in the rear wheel and driven spline assembly the two sistered ones in the driven spline are not load bearing but exist only to keep torsional loads on the spline in check. One can actually be bad and the rider wouldn't know until finger checked - that happened to me and others as has been posted in the past. The two load bearing wheel bearings pressed in the wheel would allow rear wheel lateral movement if bad but the noise should be quite apparent to my way of thinking. Still, if it were me I'd want to check everything out including the pull values on both fork legs.

 

[Sidekick]

You get more leverage with the wheel in place. If you detect movement the wheel comes off to diagnose if the play is in the wheel or swing arm. I am very skeptical of rear wheel bearing problems causing intermittent symptoms and doing so without bearing noise. While there are 4 bearings in the rear wheel and driven spline assembly the two sistered ones in the driven spline are not load bearing but exist only to keep torsional loads on the spline in check. One can actually be bad and the rider wouldn't know until finger checked - that happened to me and others as has been posted in the past. The two load bearing wheel bearings pressed in the wheel would allow rear wheel lateral movement if bad but the noise should be quite apparent to my way of thinking. Still, if it were me I'd want to check everything out including the pull values on both fork legs.

You are really helpful, thank you!

 

[jfheath]

Check the swinging arm bolts. The method of tightening them changed after the issue with the high speed weave and there are three different types of mount. In the Uk some 04 models have the later mount, some have an earlier variety. 06 models here all have the later current variety. We don't have an 05 model in the uk.

Find the correct instructions for your model make sure you have the correct tools. Slacken the left side. Check the right is torqued properly. Then follow the instructions precisely for fastening the left side. The 04 addendum that I have to my service manual includes the modified sequences for engine mounts and swing arm. They describe over-tightening, slackening, retightening to a set torque and then using strips of tape to measure a specific additional angle of torque.

Bearings that are too tight have a weird effect on the steering. The bike seems to roll underneath you - the wrong way. If you have ever had a push bike and overtightened the steering head bearings, the sensation is similar to that.

I've only ever experienced it once on a motorcycle. My swing arm bearings were worn on my very first motorbike a BSA Bantam. They were bush bearings. I knew little about them but I knew the swing arm was a bit loose, so I tightened something up down there. I don't know what I did, but basically it prevented the swing arm from swinging properly and that is what it felt like. Dangerous. Not unlike trying to tilt a spinning gyroscope. You can do it but the results of your input are not what you expect.

 

[Sidekick]

The bike seems to roll underneath you - the wrong way.

Exactly my symptoms.
What puzzles me is the inconsistency of the issue. Sometimes the handling is fine, while other times it's terrible, even with the same tire pressure and suspension settings.
I've spent a lot of time adjusting the steering head bearings and thought I'd found the optimal torque. The handling was acceptable for several thousand miles.
I can't understand how the torque could have increased on its own, which is why I considered checking the swing arm bearings.
Thank you for reminding me to check the addendum, my ST is a 2005 and the updated instructions are including this specific model.

 

[jfheath]

Thank you for reminding me to check the addendum, my ST is a 2005 and the updated instructions are including this specific model.

Heresay (or Heresy !) - From reading about the pan weave years back, I understood that the issue might have been a result of engine mounts and swing arm mounts changing as a result of heat expansion and contraction. I cannot say whether or not this is true, but I have read it somewhere. Subsequent reading through the changes in the 2003 manual and the 2004 addendum, the tightening process is a very measured sequence. I put both versions side by side and highlighted the changes. Overtighten a bolt to a certain torque, then slacken it off and tighten it to this torque. Then cut a pices of tape x mm wide and stick it over the frame/bolt join. Cut the tape along the metal join and then tighten so the right hand edge of the stationary tape is aligned with the left hand edge of the nut tape. ( The newer models also had shims for the swing arm, and there was a process for getting the right thickness of shim.)

So if someone in the nearly 20 year history of the bike has had the swing arm bolts off and then just tightened them by feel .... well you might get a bike that behaves like some early models reportedly behaved.

I'm out of my skill / experience window now. I used to take the Swing arm off the 1100 every year or two to clean it up, get rid of rust and paint it. But I have never touched the 1300. I've read up on it and know what it involved. Just never done it.

One last not-so-irrelevant observation. Please allow me to reminisce. Are you sitting comfortably ?
Then I'll begin.....

I used to cycle a lot in my youth. 10 or 25 miles evey night for a quick hour or so before starting homework. 50 miles every Tuesday and maybe 100 miles every Sunday witht he Cycling club In those days I got through bottom brackets, wheel and steering bearings pretty quickly - or I just liked building and rebuilding the bike. A bit of both I suspect.

The adjustment on my road bike steering head bearing was very fine. Loose ball and cup race. With a conical top half which tightened directly onto the bearings. You get it perfect, rolling nicely, no play, no stiffness. Then hold that position firm and tighten the locknut. And the locknut always affected the settings. I think that I used to make the bearing slacker. So I'd overtighten a tad and then tighten the locknut. No. not quite. A little bit tighter on the bearings first. then tighten the locknut. No thats too tight. A tiny bit slacker. And locknut again....
And so it went on. Keep trying and homing in on the right amount until I got it spot on.

Eventually I got so that I could get it spot on at the second attempt most times.

But the amount of adjustment between the forks rattling, the steering feeling perfect and the steering feeling slow and making the bike wander was tiny. Absolutely misinscule.
So I can believe the reasons for Honda saying tighten this to 130 Nm. Slacken it off temporarily 90 degrees. Then tighten it to 130Nm.

What difference does that make for goodness sake? If anything it must be miniscule.
Yes it must.
So all the difference in the world, then.

 

[Larry Fine]

I can't understand how the torque could have increased on its own, which is why I considered checking the swing arm bearings.

Temperature changes?

 

[Sidekick]

Heresay (or Heresy !) - From reading about the pan weave years back, I understood that the issue might have been a result of engine mounts and swing arm mounts changing as a result of heat expansion and contraction. I cannot say whether or not this is true, but I have read it somewhere. Subsequent reading through the changes in the 2003 manual and the 2004 addendum, the tightening process is a very measured sequence. I put both versions side by side and highlighted the changes. Overtighten a bolt to a certain torque, then slacken it off and tighten it to this torque. Then cut a pices of tape x mm wide and stick it over the frame/bolt join. Cut the tape along the metal join and then tighten so the right hand edge of the stationary tape is aligned with the left hand edge of the nut tape. ( The newer models also had shims for the swing arm, and there was a process for getting the right thickness of shim.)

So if someone in the nearly 20 year history of the bike has had the swing arm bolts off and then just tightened them by feel .... well you might get a bike that behaves like some early models reportedly behaved.

I'm out of my skill / experience window now. I used to take the Swing arm off the 1100 every year or two to clean it up, get rid of rust and paint it. But I have never touched the 1300. I've read up on it and know what it involved. Just never done it.

One last not-so-irrelevant observation. Please allow me to reminisce. Are you sitting comfortably ?
Then I'll begin.....

I used to cycle a lot in my youth. 10 or 25 miles evey night for a quick hour or so before starting homework. 50 miles every Tuesday and maybe 100 miles every Sunday witht he Cycling club In those days I got through bottom brackets, wheel and steering bearings pretty quickly - or I just liked building and rebuilding the bike. A bit of both I suspect.

The adjustment on my road bike steering head bearing was very fine. Loose ball and cup race. With a conical top half which tightened directly onto the bearings. You get it perfect, rolling nicely, no play, no stiffness. Then hold that position firm and tighten the locknut. And the locknut always affected the settings. I think that I used to make the bearing slacker. So I'd overtighten a tad and then tighten the locknut. No. not quite. A little bit tighter on the bearings first. then tighten the locknut. No thats too tight. A tiny bit slacker. And locknut again....
And so it went on. Keep trying and homing in on the right amount until I got it spot on.

Eventually I got so that I could get it spot on at the second attempt most times.

But the amount of adjustment between the forks rattling, the steering feeling perfect and the steering feeling slow and making the bike wander was tiny. Absolutely misinscule.
So I can believe the reasons for Honda saying tighten this to 130 Nm. Slacken it off temporarily 90 degrees. Then tighten it to 130Nm.

What difference does that make for goodness sake? If anything it must be miniscule.
Yes it must.
So all the difference in the world, then.

I'm still sitting here, carefully rereading your post to make sure I don't miss anything and to fully grasp the content.
One thing is for sure, you are not alone being puzzled by the swing arm torque sequence.
This morning, I meticulously checked for any play in my swing arm, following @dduelin's recommendations.
I found no play, leading me to believe that the bearings are tight and correctly torqued. To be absolutely certain, I even shacked the swing arm between two sturdy aluminum U-shaped legs while using a laser marker and micrometer to measure lateral and vertical movement. There was no variation.
Fortunately, any potential modifications would have introduced additional trial and error as you mentioned it.
Next, I removed the handlebars, riser, and loosened the steering head bearings adjusting nut by 3 or 4 millimeters using my fingers (no torque wrench). I then retorqued the steering bridge stem nut to 76 lb-ft and took the bike for a ride.
The improvement was dramatic. The steering is now nearly perfect, with no more feeling of the bike rolling beneath me. It's much less sensitive to tar snakes and feels more neutral.
As you said, all the difference in the world.
I've adjusted these settings at least 10 times in the past year, always double-checking with a pulling scale. Each time, I thought I'd finally found the optimal setting, only to discover that I was wrong.
I remain concerned about the long-term stability of these settings. Will they require readjustment within the next 5,000 kilometers?
I've learned that a torque wrench is often unnecessary when installing tapered roller bearings on the ST. Finger-tight is sufficient and no torque wrench will give you that feeling.
In my 40 years of motorcycle ownership, I've never encountered such unpredictable behavior as I've experienced on this ST. I've now realized that this bike's geometry is extraordinarily sharp and sensitive.

I'm truly grateful for your advice and assistance. Thank you!

Sidekick

 

[Sidekick]

Temperature changes?

Maybe tapered roller bearing are more sensitive to temperature variations considering that they have more surface in contact?
I live in upstate NY, the last torque sequence was done last winter with an average of 25f at the time, the average was 85f this summer.
Would that be enough dilatation to make the steering harder?

 

[dduelin]

I'm still sitting here, carefully rereading your post to make sure I don't miss anything and to fully grasp the content.
One thing is for sure, you are not alone being puzzled by the swing arm torque sequence.
This morning, I meticulously checked for any play in my swing arm, following @dduelin's recommendations.
I found no play, leading me to believe that the bearings are tight and correctly torqued. To be absolutely certain, I even shacked the swing arm between two sturdy aluminum U-shaped legs while using a laser marker and micrometer to measure lateral and vertical movement. There was no variation.
Fortunately, any potential modifications would have introduced additional trial and error as you mentioned it.
Next, I removed the handlebars, riser, and loosened the steering head bearings adjusting nut by 3 or 4 millimeters using my fingers (no torque wrench). I then retorqued the steering bridge stem nut to 76 lb-ft and took the bike for a ride.
The improvement was dramatic. The steering is now nearly perfect, with no more feeling of the bike rolling beneath me. It's much less sensitive to tar snakes and feels more neutral.
As you said, all the difference in the world.
I've adjusted these settings at least 10 times in the past year, always double-checking with a pulling scale. Each time, I thought I'd finally found the optimal setting, only to discover that I was wrong.
I remain concerned about the long-term stability of these settings. Will they require readjustment within the next 5,000 kilometers?
I've learned that a torque wrench is often unnecessary when installing tapered roller bearings on the ST. Finger-tight is sufficient and no torque wrench will give you that feeling.
In my 40 years of motorcycle ownership, I've never encountered such unpredictable behavior as I've experienced on this ST. I've now realized that this bike's geometry is extraordinarily sharp and sensitive.

I'm truly grateful for your advice and assistance. Thank you!

Sidekick

I’m glad you figured it out. And yes, finger tight on the adjustment nut.

Post #13 in this thread:

Notchy Steering Head Bearings | ST1300-Bearings

Hi all, I was doing and oil change this evening when I had the bike on the center stand, I moved the handlebars and I can just detect a very slight notch in center of steering. can really only be felt if I hold the bars in my fingertips, and I know it would probablt be more noticeable with the...

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