Gus1300
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Out of the blue, went to ride to work night before last, all geared up, astride, hit the starter and motor turns over but no hint of firing. Tried three times before I gave up and switched to the truck. Same thing yesterday and again today after hoping (I know...insanity) that I was just dreaming and all would be well again after another sunrise or two.
I don't recall my 1300A ever doing this in 11 years and over 80K miles...if it turned over, it started. Was on a tender and new (this year) battery, turns over strong, so it's not that. I have the service manual and it says the standard 'check plugs, etc' but wanted to ask here if anyone had ever had anything like that happen. Last ridden, without any problems, just a week and a half ago and now, nothing but starter.
The only issues I've had have been a knock sensor code while riding, which results in an RPM drop but bike still goes down the road, and it reset overnight. Hit or miss as to when it happened while riding; I couldn't establish a pattern related to heat or duration. And last season, a spontaneous shutdown while on the move, which also reset after cycling the key with the clutch pulled in...hasn't happened again.
The knock sensor was a 25 code (right sensor, assuming my correction on page 5-14 is accurate) and I just got a 12 code (#1 injector connector) when I tried to start the bike today, so I guess I'll start there. That's going to be getting pretty deep into the bike, so this may not be a quick fix after all.
I'll dig into it later when I'm not on night shift, but wondered what others have found, or might suggest, as easy first checks before digging too deep into other potential problems after the same non-start situation. Apologies for not searching for previous threads just yet before submitting; if they're out there, I'll find them, just not this week.
Thanks!
12 Sep 2018 update: Appreciate all the words and suggestions below. For those possibly with a similar problem, I quickly ruled out the kill switch, side stand switch, neutral switch, and battery as the engine cranks over (or doesn't) based on all of those being in the proper (or improper) positions. Also ruled out any furry creatures having lunch on my wiring.
The FI light wasn't going out after turning on (and was flashing the code 12 for a #1 Fuel Injector failure) and I couldn't hear the fuel pump so focused there. First step in the manual is to check for power to the Brown and Green (Br/G) wire pair at the fuel pump connector. Should be battery voltage, and was zero.
The next things the manual says to check are (in order):
Main 30A fuse (figured if this was blown, nothing else would be happening so pretty sure it's good)
Sub 10A fuse (again, didn't dig for this as I still hadn't verified that the fuel pump would operate given applied battery voltage and things seemed to be working electrically otherwise)
Engine Stop Switch (motor won't turn over if the stop switch is off, and does when it's on, so ruled that out)
Fuel Cut-off Relay: This is located on the left side aft of the lift handle (under the left side cover). Pulled it and applied voltage to the correct terminals to verify relay 'click'. Checked terminal resistance and it seems to be in working order. So it is not getting battery voltage and thus not supplying power to the fuel pump connector.
Since I hadn't yet heard the fuel pump to rule it in or out, I jumped the relay terminals (simulating battery voltage applied) and lo and behold, the fuel pump spins...and spins and spins and spins...as long as the jumper is in. That tells me it's the signal to the relay carried on the Brown/Black (Br/B) wire that's causing a problem, which, according to the wiring diagram, goes directly back to the ECM. Interestingly enough, the ECM is the last step in the process for getting the fuel pump to run, after the Engine Stop Relay and Bank Angle Sensor, neither of which at this point are suspect.
While I'm relieved that I don't have to pull the fuel pump just yet, I'm at a crossroad as to what to do about the ECM. Are there 'test' parts available before having to lay down the $$$s for a new one that could rule it in or out as the problem? Haven't looked on the site here for availability so just throwing it out there while thinking out loud and contemplating the next step. A quick Google search shows they're available for anywhere S of $400. Not sure whether it's a serviceable item either. I do see that it was updated in 2008 and the new ones aren't backward compatible.
I also read that there have been problems with the knock sensors, and mine was throwing a code 25 (Rt Knock Sensor, corrected from Lt printing error in the manual) for awhile prior to the non-start event, so maybe that's ECM related as well. I haven't looked at either of the knock sensors yet, but may as well while the bike is down anyway. Will update when I get eyes on those and check them out as well.
Appreciate any input as to options from here!
19 Sep 2018 update: Finally got a chance to get a little further into this problem. Managed to find the 14-pin (of only 13 are used) connector (gray, circular) behind the coolant overflow reservoir. The injector pins (P/Bu - #1, R/Y - #2, P/G - #3, P/Bl - #4) all live in a circular order after the Bl/W power pin that is common to them all. The service manual says there should be 11.1 to 12.3 ohms between each respective terminal and the power pin. Once I found a wire small enough to make contact with the terminals, lo and behold, #2, #3, and #4 all fall right at 12 ohms. Unlucky #1 is at 3-6 ohms over several (hopeful) measurements. So it looks like I'm going in deep to get to Injector #1 and the ECU seems to know what it's talking about.
Thanks for the hint to look for this connector! I was hopeful it wasn't an injector, but to be honest, I think replacing that, if it fixes the problem, will be a lot simpler than trying to trace, and fix, a bad ground or power continuity somewhere in the harness. At least I've been into the area below the airbox before...just haven't had to work on the throttle body. But, no fear...with the help here, the service manual, and a little magic dance in the garage when turning the key after replacing it, hopefully all will end well!
While I have the plastic off, I checked the Knock Sensors (have gotten a 25 code before) but they both looked undamaged (some have mentioned heat damage to the connector) so I plan to leave them for now. Also removed the radiator and drained the coolant. I've never had any problem with steady 3-bar temps so don't suspect a stuck thermostat, just haven't done too much with the coolant so figured it was probably time. There was some crud in the otherwise dry (yes, I know...) overflow reservoir, so managed to knock some of that loose by putting ice chips in there to get it off the walls so I can hopefully not recirculate it. Didn't see any of the black paint residue others have noted. I plan to replace the fluid with Honda Type II as has been mentioned on other threads.
I may also work on my GPS mount since I'll pretty much have the bike torn down to the point that I can run the wiring harness. We'll see. I would like to ride some yet this fall while the weather is nice, so maybe that will get done, maybe I'll leave it for a winter project and just get things up and running again. Will update here when I've gotten to the throttle body and injector.
5 Oct 2018 update: Finally got around to draining the tank and I think I've found at least part of the problem if not all of it! My apologies to st1100y2k who suggested this problem earlier. I've caught the occasional house mouse in the garage, but didn't think they were setting up residence on my ride! I'll be getting a sub-harness and will update again when that arrives and is installed. Meanwhile, thanks for all the suggestions; sometimes you have to get into the bike a ways to see all the possibilities. <sigh>
I'm surprised it ran as good as it did for as long as it did. I'm hopeful there is a marked increase in performance after everything is back together!
17 Oct 2018 update: Threaded out the old harness and threaded in the new today...heard the satisfying sound of the fuel pump charging as soon as power was applied, and it started right up! The FI light is acting normal after giving nine long blinks on the first power up. Everything back together except for the exterior plastic, which needs a good cleaning before it goes back on.
Don't let your air filter get this bad! I hope my mileage improves back to the 46 I normally get on the highway, it had been down to 42 or so prior to this stoppage.
Thanks for all the input and assistance getting to the bottom of this non-start issue...I should be back riding by tomorrow!
I don't recall my 1300A ever doing this in 11 years and over 80K miles...if it turned over, it started. Was on a tender and new (this year) battery, turns over strong, so it's not that. I have the service manual and it says the standard 'check plugs, etc' but wanted to ask here if anyone had ever had anything like that happen. Last ridden, without any problems, just a week and a half ago and now, nothing but starter.
The only issues I've had have been a knock sensor code while riding, which results in an RPM drop but bike still goes down the road, and it reset overnight. Hit or miss as to when it happened while riding; I couldn't establish a pattern related to heat or duration. And last season, a spontaneous shutdown while on the move, which also reset after cycling the key with the clutch pulled in...hasn't happened again.
The knock sensor was a 25 code (right sensor, assuming my correction on page 5-14 is accurate) and I just got a 12 code (#1 injector connector) when I tried to start the bike today, so I guess I'll start there. That's going to be getting pretty deep into the bike, so this may not be a quick fix after all.
I'll dig into it later when I'm not on night shift, but wondered what others have found, or might suggest, as easy first checks before digging too deep into other potential problems after the same non-start situation. Apologies for not searching for previous threads just yet before submitting; if they're out there, I'll find them, just not this week.
Thanks!
12 Sep 2018 update: Appreciate all the words and suggestions below. For those possibly with a similar problem, I quickly ruled out the kill switch, side stand switch, neutral switch, and battery as the engine cranks over (or doesn't) based on all of those being in the proper (or improper) positions. Also ruled out any furry creatures having lunch on my wiring.
The FI light wasn't going out after turning on (and was flashing the code 12 for a #1 Fuel Injector failure) and I couldn't hear the fuel pump so focused there. First step in the manual is to check for power to the Brown and Green (Br/G) wire pair at the fuel pump connector. Should be battery voltage, and was zero.
The next things the manual says to check are (in order):
Main 30A fuse (figured if this was blown, nothing else would be happening so pretty sure it's good)
Sub 10A fuse (again, didn't dig for this as I still hadn't verified that the fuel pump would operate given applied battery voltage and things seemed to be working electrically otherwise)
Engine Stop Switch (motor won't turn over if the stop switch is off, and does when it's on, so ruled that out)
Fuel Cut-off Relay: This is located on the left side aft of the lift handle (under the left side cover). Pulled it and applied voltage to the correct terminals to verify relay 'click'. Checked terminal resistance and it seems to be in working order. So it is not getting battery voltage and thus not supplying power to the fuel pump connector.
Since I hadn't yet heard the fuel pump to rule it in or out, I jumped the relay terminals (simulating battery voltage applied) and lo and behold, the fuel pump spins...and spins and spins and spins...as long as the jumper is in. That tells me it's the signal to the relay carried on the Brown/Black (Br/B) wire that's causing a problem, which, according to the wiring diagram, goes directly back to the ECM. Interestingly enough, the ECM is the last step in the process for getting the fuel pump to run, after the Engine Stop Relay and Bank Angle Sensor, neither of which at this point are suspect.
While I'm relieved that I don't have to pull the fuel pump just yet, I'm at a crossroad as to what to do about the ECM. Are there 'test' parts available before having to lay down the $$$s for a new one that could rule it in or out as the problem? Haven't looked on the site here for availability so just throwing it out there while thinking out loud and contemplating the next step. A quick Google search shows they're available for anywhere S of $400. Not sure whether it's a serviceable item either. I do see that it was updated in 2008 and the new ones aren't backward compatible.
I also read that there have been problems with the knock sensors, and mine was throwing a code 25 (Rt Knock Sensor, corrected from Lt printing error in the manual) for awhile prior to the non-start event, so maybe that's ECM related as well. I haven't looked at either of the knock sensors yet, but may as well while the bike is down anyway. Will update when I get eyes on those and check them out as well.
Appreciate any input as to options from here!
19 Sep 2018 update: Finally got a chance to get a little further into this problem. Managed to find the 14-pin (of only 13 are used) connector (gray, circular) behind the coolant overflow reservoir. The injector pins (P/Bu - #1, R/Y - #2, P/G - #3, P/Bl - #4) all live in a circular order after the Bl/W power pin that is common to them all. The service manual says there should be 11.1 to 12.3 ohms between each respective terminal and the power pin. Once I found a wire small enough to make contact with the terminals, lo and behold, #2, #3, and #4 all fall right at 12 ohms. Unlucky #1 is at 3-6 ohms over several (hopeful) measurements. So it looks like I'm going in deep to get to Injector #1 and the ECU seems to know what it's talking about.
Thanks for the hint to look for this connector! I was hopeful it wasn't an injector, but to be honest, I think replacing that, if it fixes the problem, will be a lot simpler than trying to trace, and fix, a bad ground or power continuity somewhere in the harness. At least I've been into the area below the airbox before...just haven't had to work on the throttle body. But, no fear...with the help here, the service manual, and a little magic dance in the garage when turning the key after replacing it, hopefully all will end well!
While I have the plastic off, I checked the Knock Sensors (have gotten a 25 code before) but they both looked undamaged (some have mentioned heat damage to the connector) so I plan to leave them for now. Also removed the radiator and drained the coolant. I've never had any problem with steady 3-bar temps so don't suspect a stuck thermostat, just haven't done too much with the coolant so figured it was probably time. There was some crud in the otherwise dry (yes, I know...) overflow reservoir, so managed to knock some of that loose by putting ice chips in there to get it off the walls so I can hopefully not recirculate it. Didn't see any of the black paint residue others have noted. I plan to replace the fluid with Honda Type II as has been mentioned on other threads.
I may also work on my GPS mount since I'll pretty much have the bike torn down to the point that I can run the wiring harness. We'll see. I would like to ride some yet this fall while the weather is nice, so maybe that will get done, maybe I'll leave it for a winter project and just get things up and running again. Will update here when I've gotten to the throttle body and injector.
5 Oct 2018 update: Finally got around to draining the tank and I think I've found at least part of the problem if not all of it! My apologies to st1100y2k who suggested this problem earlier. I've caught the occasional house mouse in the garage, but didn't think they were setting up residence on my ride! I'll be getting a sub-harness and will update again when that arrives and is installed. Meanwhile, thanks for all the suggestions; sometimes you have to get into the bike a ways to see all the possibilities. <sigh>
I'm surprised it ran as good as it did for as long as it did. I'm hopeful there is a marked increase in performance after everything is back together!
17 Oct 2018 update: Threaded out the old harness and threaded in the new today...heard the satisfying sound of the fuel pump charging as soon as power was applied, and it started right up! The FI light is acting normal after giving nine long blinks on the first power up. Everything back together except for the exterior plastic, which needs a good cleaning before it goes back on.
Don't let your air filter get this bad! I hope my mileage improves back to the 46 I normally get on the highway, it had been down to 42 or so prior to this stoppage.
Thanks for all the input and assistance getting to the bottom of this non-start issue...I should be back riding by tomorrow!
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