Engine noise under load - is it normal?

[RaYzerman]

What you have is a reasonably high performance engine that needs to run in its happy place... agree, ride it in a higher rpm range all the time, it actually likes it. Its not your dad's Buick. When shifting, get up to near 5000 rpm where it is starting to develop real torque, when I had my ST I thought it ran better if I generally kept the revs up 3500-ish and more. It will be more efficient (fuel mileage) there, not as much under load.
If knocking is severe, may want to change knock sensors, and by all means adjust the balancers as they can make noise under load also.
I have a project bike, was ridden like grandma, and it is all carboned up, the intake valves have carbon buildup. The owner always shifted at 3500 rpm (FJR1300). It was given to me in a basket... criminal really. Ride the damned thing the way it was designed to be ridden, get it into the power band every day you ride, but don't have to go crazy and redline it. Happy medium.

 

[Helitronix]

In my case, shifting at higher RPM as others suggested I do, was really the resolution to my problems. I've since learned to shift at higher RPM and the ST is generally quite smooth. The only time the ST makes more buzzing than I'd like is if it's in 1st or 2nd gear and I'm up over 6500 RPM. It's quite comfortable at high RPM in other gears. I'm still enjoying my ST very much. I have 28808 miles on it as of today, and it runs like a top.

 

[bstig60]

I rarely exceed 4000rpm in any gear. I shift by sound, and that has lead me to shift the ST in the 2500 to 3000 rpm range more often than not.

I've tried shifting at higher RPM, say 4000, to see what that was like. The engine ran fine at that rpm, but my ears weren't used to hearing it run that fast so I didn't do that too much and resumed shifting at lower RPM.

I know that my ear isn't necessarily correct as far as the ST is concerned. I've simply been accustomed to driving manual transmission cars for 25 years, so I can only compare it to that.

Mine doesn't ping on Regular.. But, IMO, on the ST13, I never shift at less that 4000 RPM, this is a high RPM engine that makes it's max HP at 8000 RPM and max torque at 6000 RPM. available power is limited at 2000 R's. This engine puts out 125 HP and 115 lbs torque. If you are low on power if you shift at higher RPM's I would start looking for issues at the spark plugs, plug wires and caps.... That is low mileage for a 2006 bike, so that probably means it has set a lot. It is probably due a valve adjustment check just due to time past. You should also have the injector valve bodies synced, one or more out of sync can sap power. It would seem a general tune up would be in order. I ride single most of the time, but I weigh 210; my bike will jump out from under me if I'm not careful.... When you crack the throttle you best hang on....

 

[Thunderchief]

My 2007 sounds like a sewing machine under low load but if the engine is loaded, like rolling on the throttle at 2,500 RPM, I get a deep low growl. It is a good sound.

 

[FrogmanDave]

like rolling on the throttle at 2,500 RPM, I get a deep low growl. It is a good sound.

Many on here refer to that sound as a 'box of rocks'. I agree completely. Definitely not a good sound to me. It only lasts for about 2,000 rpm so it isn't a big deal.

 

[Smoother]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have some thoughts. I too, have a 1300 and am curious about the “box of rocks” sound at lower RPM, especially under load. Is it ping? Balance shaft, OR is it the gear box??? I’ve tried to analyse the sound many times and I’m wondering if the sound I am hearing is the individual teeth of the gearbox meshing. In these low speeds, high gear scenarios, the rear wheel (and therefore output cog in use) is turning rather fast, and at high individual load, relative to engine speed. Because sequential gearbox gears are straight cut, not bevelled, the whole of each tooth hits completely at one time, so what you end up with is a rapid series of high load gear tooth impacts. It’s just a thought. I’m just curious why my ST1100 doesn’t do the same thing. The 1100 is smooth as a sewing machine in these exact same conditions (my driving style doesn’t change). Made me think something was wrong with my 1300 when I bought it. It seems strange to me that Honda would make a “worse” engine as an “upgrade”. So now I have an older tech bike with a silky smooth drive line and a newer tech bike with a box of rocks for an engine. Makes it hard to decide which one to sell on.

 

[dduelin]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have some thoughts. I too, have a 1300 and am curious about the “box of rocks” sound at lower RPM, especially under load. Is it ping? Balance shaft, OR is it the gear box??? I’ve tried to analyse the sound many times and I’m wondering if the sound I am hearing is the individual teeth of the gearbox meshing. In these low speeds, high gear scenarios, the rear wheel (and therefore output cog in use) is turning rather fast, and at high individual load, relative to engine speed. Because sequential gearbox gears are straight cut, not bevelled, each tooth hits completely at the same time, so what you end up with is a rapid series of high load gear tooth impacts. It’s just a thought. I’m just curious why my ST1100 doesn’t do the same thing. The 1100 is smooth as a sewing machine in these exact same conditions. Made me think something was wrong with my 1300 when I bought it. It seems strange to me that Honda would make a worse engine as an “upgrade”. So now I have an older tech bike with a silky smooth drive line and a newer tech bike with a box of rocks for an engine. Makes it hard to decide which one to sell on.

The gravelly sound is almost certainly from the gear set that drives the two counterbalance shafts. It's most likely not the gearbox or premature detonation of fuel 'ping'. The lash of the balancer drive gears is minutely adjustable and affects the sound of the gear set but not the balance shaft phase or primary balance of the engine. The noise is heard only at low rpm and may suggest operating the bike a little higher in the rev range especially under load. Honda designed the drive for the balancers and alternator drive set to revolve opposite to the crankshaft and effectively cancel torque reaction of the longitudinal crankshaft. The gear noise is a tradeoff for this gain. Like the VFR 750/800's gear driven camshafts the noise is part of the character of the machine. There is an adjustment allowed on the counterbalance shafts if you want to try and minimize the noise. Threads and threads abound on the adjustment.

Google Search

www.google.com

 

[Smoother]

Ok. That’s interesting, thanks. I’ve been meaning to figure out this balance shaft thing. Hopefully your link is the catalyst for me to get it done. My ‘04 is an ex police bike with 91,000 miles and counting. I’ll report back with results of the adjustment.

 

[Smoother]

I’ve just read the balance shaft adjustment procedure twice, and I have a question/thought. I’m fundamentally lazy by nature and hate doing extra stuff. The procedure calls for a “rough” adjustment with the engine cold, followed by a final adjustment with the engine warm and running. My question is; if the bike has been functional before the adjustment, I.e. it runs but “might “ need adjustment, why not just skip straight to the final adjustment, the presumption being that, if it’s been working, it won’t be that far out of adjustment anyway, and even if it is, the final adjustment will take care of any and all excess backlash, regardless of how much there was, in the first place.
I can understand if the engine has been rebuilt and things may be way out of alignment upon re-assembly, but on a running engine, this two stage process seems like a waste of time.

 

[jfheath]

The cheapest answer to your problem is to adjust the balance shafts. If too loose they will rattle annoyingly under load.

Pinging is another option - that is a high pitched rattle that can be confused easily with the bunch of keys in your lockable fairing pocket. Clean the fuel. Put in some high octane stuff and don't use w30 grade oil. It gets too thin when the engine gets hot.

Gearbox? I haven't got a clue what a dying gearbox sounds like. I've had a lot of sounds that have made me worried that it might be, but thankfully have always turned out to be something cheaper.

Including keys in the fairing pocket

 

[Smoother]

That’s two votes for the balance shafts. I’m throwing on some old clothes to go out and do it, as we speak. I’m excited that this might be the solution to my grumbling sound. Fingers crossed. A FEW MINUTES LATER… WOW! My adjusters don’t look like the lovely clean ones in the book. That’s what 18 years and 91,000 miles, stuck on the front of an engine gets you. This will be fun, NOT! A FEW MINUTES LATER…Got that right. See photo of a locking bolt now, it sheered off!!! one of my shafts is only locked in place by rust, until I can drill out the rest and replace it. Why don’t they use copper grease at the factory?
10 MINUTES LATER. Yep you guessed it, they both sheered off. And the top one is blocked by a header from getting a direct shot with a drill bit. On a bike this old, the fewer things you disturb, the better (see above problems) everything is so rusty that any unused bolts are liable to sheer, just like these two have.

 

[dduelin]

The cheapest answer to your problem is to adjust the balance shafts. If too loose they will rattle annoyingly under load.
Pinging is another option - that is a high pitched rattle that can be confused easily with the bunch of keys in your lockable fairing pocket. Clean the fuel. Put in some high octane stuff and don't use w30 grade oil. It gets too thin when the engine gets hot.
Gearbox? I haven't got a clue what a dying gearbox
Sounds like. I've had a lot of sounds that have made me worried that it might be, but thankfully have always turned out to be something cheaper. Including keys in the fairing pocket

Unless you have the FI 25/26 code signaling a trouble code the knock adjusters in each cylinder bank adjust ignition timing to account for predetonation that may occur with less than premium fuel.

Honda's primary oil viscosity recommendation for the ST1300 is 10w30. It doesn't get "too thin" when the engine gets hot. To the contrary, higher than 10w30 viscosity oils drive oil temperature up from friction in the oil pump and gallery distribution system. Honda's own research confirmed 10w30 oil runs cooler than 10w40 or higher when oil temp is measured at the camshaft bushings and crankshaft bearings. That is the reason behind the recommendation change from 10w40 to 10w30 in MY2006.

 

[Smoother]

good to know. Thanks

 

[jfheath]

Honda's primary oil viscosity recommendation for the ST1300 is 10w30. It doesn't get "too thin" when the engine gets hot. To the contrary, higher than 10w30 viscosity oils drive oil temperature up from friction in the oil pump and gallery distribution system. Honda's own research confirmed 10w30 oil runs cooler than 10w40 or higher when oil temp is measured at the camshaft bushings and crankshaft bearings. That is the reason behind the recommendation change from 10w40 to 10w30 in MY2006.

I bow to your superior knowledge. I was speaking from my experience from my 2006 model which I owned from new and would pink readily when hot and under load. I changed to 10w30 and it made it worse. 10w40 was one of the things that combined to eventually cure it. Of course there could have been other variables that affected my observations.

The uk handbook and the honda shop manual both quoted different spec oil. One was 10w30, the other 10w40, snd I can't remember which said which. Academic now, as the post 2008 models are tuned differently, have much more low rev grunt and my A9 has never pinked like my 2006 model used to. But I still use fully synth 10w40.

 

[Smoother]

Decided that removing both holdfasts was the easiest way to go, and so far it has been. Now I’ll clean them up and drill out the bolts.

 

[Smoother]

Well, drilling and extracting has proven to be very difficult. I’ve already broken a drill bit and an extractor which I then had to drill out because the broken bit was firmly lodged in the hole. The photo shows an extractor all the way through but I cannot extract the stub. If I put any more force on it I will break another extractor. At this point I think both holdfasts are ruined. I’ll have to find and buy two new ones.

 

[Smoother]

I did try one more thing, I have some drill/tap all in one drills. I was half way through cutting new threads when the tap snapped off in the hole. So that’s it; without access to a machine shop these two are un salvageable. It cost me around £60 to order new ones from CMSNL in the Netherlands (David Silver is useless back ordered and expensive). So my bike will be off the road at least a week as my package works it’s way through Brexit border controls.

 

[dduelin]

I did try one more thing, I have some drill/tap all in one drills. I was half way through cutting new threads when the tap snapped off in the hole. So that’s it; without access to a machine shop these two are un salvageable. It cost me around £60 to order new ones from CMSNL in the Netherlands (David Silver is useless back ordered and expensive). So my bike will be off the road at least a week as my package works it’s way through Brexit border controls.

That is a bummer.

 

[Smoother]

CMSNL, it turns out has the parts on back order so I tried something radical; I called the nearest Honda dealer and Honda UK has them in stock. Ordered yesterday, arrived today, excellent, because I’m riding this bike 123 miles to the airport in three days ( bikes park free). Yes it cost a bit more (£70 vs about £60) but parking for the car would have cost me £135, so it was worth it.
I clear coated them so they wouldn’t rust up like the old ones.
Before installing them I tried to adjust the balance shafts. Set back: they were frozen solid. god knows if they have ever been adjusted (18 years, 91,000 miles, but new to me about 9 months ago).
to cut a long story short, I slid a wrench over the biggest screwdriver I own ( hex shaped shaft to allow for extra leverage). Some penetrant and working them back and forth and they freed up nicely. Plenty of copper grease on the holdfasts to prevent future sheared bolts.
Finished up the procedure as specified, reattached Tupperware, went for very short ride. No petrol, and station was closed for the night. It did seem a bit smoother, I’ll test more tomorrow and report.

 

[Smoother]

Well, I’m sad to say, adjusting the balance shafts chain, made no difference to my noise. My noise is speed and load related, the balance shafts experience no load, just changes in rotational speed. At a given constant speed, there is little if any noise, but open the throttle and even before the speed changes significantly the grumble appears. So, for my bike only, I still think the noise is the meshing of the teeth in the gearbox. It’s not bad, it’s just not as silent as my ST1100. Although it cost me £70 and a day of work, which resulted in no observable improvement, I’m glad I have refreshed those parts, and I’m glad I now know my shaft chain slack is correct. And as a bonus, while the left side Tupperware was off, I took the opportunity to install a robust cigarette lighter circuit, capable of powering a tire pump. Alongside the USB outlet/Volt meter, that I installed last month, utilising one of the quad connector fittings.