If not now, then..... when?

ST1100Y said:
A "guided tour" isn't a democracy... and any group larger then 3 bikes is "transport"... especially in alpine terrain...
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While it's true that most guided tours are not democracies, I think the tour operator can certainly make it more flexible. I engage my tour members every day (and during the day) offering a couple of routing options and letting them pick if they want a route with narrow roads, high open passes, perhaps a cable car stop, etc. I poll them every day as to whether they want an early lunch or want to keep riding, do they want to cut the day short due to intermittent rain or keep riding, etc. My groups are small enough that we are very flexible.

"larger than 3 bikes is transport" may be true if you live and ride there as you do - we have Euro riders go by us frequently, but if you're from North America you appreciate the opportunity to ride some of the best riding in the world, be it 3 bikes or 8 bikes. I've seen outfits like Edelweiss ride with everyone essentially in a line with a leader and a sweep. On my tours the faster riders are in front, the more relaxed riders in the rear, everyone goes at their own pace. We tend to stay within sight of each other in the valleys transiting from one pass to another and then get strung out a bit enjoying the riding up and down the passes based on each rider's skill and pace, but if everyone is experienced it only takes 1 - 3 minutes to regroup, not a big deal at all.
 
Moto-Charlie said:
but if you're from North America you appreciate the opportunity to ride some of the best riding in the world, be it 3 bikes or 8 bikes. I've seen outfits like Edelweiss ride with everyone essentially in a line with a leader and a sweep.
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Agree with this 100%. I wasn't there to race anyone, and I wasn't there to test my cornering skills. I was just there to see the sights and the cities, enjoy the mountainous scenery, ride relaxed and enjoy the whole experience. On our tour with Edelweiss, we were as described, in a line, with a leader and a sweep. It was definitely not an issue for me. YMMV
 
Moto-Charlie said:
Looks like you had a very enjoyable hike. I think Austria sometimes gets under rated, somewhat like a less pretentious, less fussy Switzerland (which I love) - but it is a beautiful country with a lot of wonderful nature spots to enjoy. For some reason it did not occur to me until I chanced upon an article in my news feed that Austria, Switzerland, etc. also have significant tick (and their related pathogen issues) populations like here in NH and hikers have to take care when in the woods (although Vienna supposedly has them too). I'm guessing that any you might have inadvertently picked were left floating in the glacial water. ;)

It was nice to see your pics of Lienz. We stayed there in June and are going back in September, partly as a base for the Grossglockner.
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Only Austria has tolls on its mountains passes. And draconian ones I should add.
Switzerland has plenty of beautiful mountains and roads.
 
Moto-Charlie said:
... the faster riders are in front, the more relaxed riders in the rear...
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Nah, just the opposite...
newbies/slow folks right behind the guide, they determine his pace* there...
Experienced ones always at the rear, they won't have much of a problem to catch up; i.e. after passing vehicles/other obstructions...
And everyone is responsible for the fella behind him (drop off method), if that "convoy" in front of me makes a turn, and those behind me are not in my rear-view, I have to stop at that junction (as a marker) and wait for them!

* as said: groups is "transport"... common sense applies and rules to follow...

If its previously agreed on "next stop at..." and then the last four bikes in a group of seven (hence hard to spot/observe in my rear-view) have suddenly disappeared into thin air, I'll stop, walk to the third bike behind me to inquire where those behind him are... and all I get is a blank stare... :cautious:
So I've to instruct them to stay here while I rush back doing a search party... there could have been an accident after all... so I've my eyes peeled for skid-marks and debris... 😨

And then I find those four knuckleheads peacefully lounging at a pup because "... yeah, we have decided to go for a beer..." ... ah-ha... 🤬

And that right there was it for me with any "group rides"... :nuke1:
 
ST1100Y said:
Nah, just the opposite...
newbies/slow folks right behind the guide, they determine his pace* there...
Experienced ones always at the rear, they won't have much of a problem to catch up; i.e. after passing vehicles/other obstructions...
And everyone is responsible for the fella behind him (drop off method), if that "convoy" in front of me makes a turn, and those behind me are not in my rear-view, I have to stop at that junction (as a marker) and wait for them!

* as said: groups is "transport"... common sense applies and rules to follow...

If its previously agreed on "next stop at..." and then the last four bikes in a group of seven (hence hard to spot/observe in my rear-view) have suddenly disappeared into thin air, I'll stop, walk to the third bike behind me to inquire where those behind him are... and all I get is a blank stare... :cautious:
So I've to instruct them to stay here while I rush back doing a search party... there could have been an accident after all... so I've my eyes peeled for skid-marks and debris... 😨

And then I find those four knuckleheads peacefully lounging at a pup because "... yeah, we have decided to go for a beer..." ... ah-ha... 🤬

And that right there was it for me with any "group rides"... :nuke1:
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Yeah, if the riders not at the same skills level it is a nightmare.
 
My first trip to the Alps, I went with a tour outfit. We were given a route book before we even left home. Each day outlined a least 3 routes. Each route carried a description regarding length, skill level, what to see. Each morning the tour leader would say which route he was riding and those that wanted to join him could. Others could go their own choosing. Everyone knew the hotel at the end of the day. It didn't take more than a day for the group to split up into small (2-4) bikes. Worked great. Sometimes there were "late" arrivers at the hotel but nobody got lost.....for long. Still not as good as just winging it on your own or with a couple of other riders.
 
I want to thank ALL of you for contributing to my ride report. I think your input solidifies my earlier comment in that indeed, there is more than one way to do this. No one size fits them all and like any motorcycle tour, or travel in general, each of us has to weigh ALL of it and find our way. My priorities in making my deicsion should be glaringly obvious by now, but others have different priorities. This is why I insisted on the facetime call with the others BEFORE I committed. I wanted to manage expectations, for ALL of us. I wanted to share explicitely what I was expecting, and listen to them do the same. I wanted to attempt to SEE their fascial expressions when I asked: "Are we going to do any hiking?" or "What type of hotels do ya'll prefer to use?", and the like. I didn't expect everyone to conform to my way, but rather see if they were willing to consider it, and at least make some concessions to accomodate. To be clear, these people are my friends - I knew them before we left. But when you are going to spend a month traveling with a friend, it's different. And different is a good thing. The few days we split up and did our own thing were beneficial for everyone. After a while, to some degree, everyone tests each other and a little break is a good thing. I used to moto-tour with a friend who coincidentally rode an ST1300. It was never planned, but every time, after about 4 days, he would wake up and decide "I think I'm going to go on my own". He'd never say, but obviously, he had enough of my "crap", whatever it was. After 2 trips, I quit inviting him to join me. I didn't want them or me to do that in Europe. Or worse yet, NOT do it and live your dream trip in misery. I'm glad it worked out the way it did.

All of your arguements (using that term respectfully) are valid. Perhaps the most important plan you can make on a trip like this is to decide who you are going to ride with, and what are their expectations.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.....
 
Day 26
Lienz, Austria to Berchtesgadener, Germany

It rained last night and this morning, it feels like the heat has broken. We all left Lienz with good thoughts. That was a nice place to stop and stay a while.

We ride north out of town climbing the same mountain I was on yesterday. Bryan looks like he is feeling a little spunky this morning.

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Top of the morning to you as well, my friend.

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We pay the toll at the entrance to the Grossglockner highway and the climb gets steeper and MUCH twistier immediately. That was a fun ride up to the top. We took a small detour off the highway toward something special. On the way to that, we stopped at this beautiful waterfall.

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Onward and upward!

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This the source of that waterfall just below. This is a wonderful place to walk around. It’s like 65 degrees and sunny – feels like the entire world is air conditioned.

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We get to the end of the road – Pasterze Glacier!

(or at least what’s left of it)

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There is quite a view from here.

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We had a snack at the café overlooking the glacier, and then Bryan, Marissa, and I walked a “trail” toward the glacier that was actually a tunnel in the mountain. There were some openings to view the glacier along the way. It was a cool walk – literally. Probably low sixties in that tunnel. I don’t think I’ve ever walked a “trail” that was actually a tunnel.

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We rejoined with Greg back out of the tunnel, and then geared up to continue. We don’t have these contraptions in south Louisiana. I think it’s got 3 engines!

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Ill sonte partis!

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Back on the Grossglochner highway, we start climbing again. We haven’t seen trees since just after the toll gate – only tundra up here.

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We get to the top of Hochtner Pass and its time for another edition of STFU, Pants. These pictures will speak for themselves.

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We are not immune from the Universal Law of Gravitation. What goes up, must come down and soon, we find the trees again.

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….and the cows, as it were.

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We crossed into generally the Salzberg region of Germany and rode the Postalmstrass Loop, which was a really nice series of quiet picturesque roads. Not goat trails, but not quite “highways”.

Bryan and Greg found us a place to stay in this really cute alpine village of Berchtesgadener, Germany. The hotel clerk shared with me that this bier is brewed in a neighboring village. I looked it up, and as it turns out, this brewery has been making this bier for 375 years. I’d say they got the recipe down pat.

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The restaurant had a BBQ rib dinner on special, and we all opted for that. There was only one dessert choice, which made the decision easy for us.

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We are getting closer to the end, both geographically, and perhaps to a lesser degree, in spirit. At least for myself, I feel no animosity what so ever. I’ve had an indescribable experience. This has been everything I could have possibly imagined, and honestly, a LOT more. I state this in every context possible: The riding, the scenery, the cultural exposure, the camaraderie. All of it has been amazing. To be clear, we still have a few days left and I’m not planning on wasting any of it.

But it’s been an incredible trip.
 
Back in the summer of 1970 I was stationed in Berchtesgaden with the US Army, and met my wife on the walking path up to the Fortress that overlooks Salzburg. This Wednesday, 12 Aug, it will be 56 years ago. I hope you enjoyed your short stay in B-Gaden.



Hohensalzburg Fortress

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HPPants said:
We pay the toll at the entrance to the Grossglockner highway and the climb gets steeper and MUCH twistier immediately. That was a fun ride up to the top.
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pfffff... you guys have no idea just how lucky you were... 🤔

Normally this road is crowded, endless queues, abso_F_lutely gridlocked... :cautious:

BTW: those 15 ton, 375 HP snowblowers are in duty since 1953... 😎
(before that a crew with shovels had to clear that road... which took forever...)
 
HPPants said:
This made my day. Seriously, THIS is why I write ride reports.
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Your ride report has brought back many memories of my times living and visiting in the Bavarian / Austrian Alps, Unfortunately only a very short period of time on a motorcycle. Thank you for a wonderful ride along.
 
HPPants said:
We get to the end of the road – Pasterze Glacier!

(or at least what’s left of it)
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Riding in the Alps always brings me joy, but sadness too on rare occasions as it pertains to the disappearing glaciers. When I first started riding there 40+ years ago the Pasterze Glacier was probably 3/4+ full in that now empty canyon hole. Initially the melting occurred slowly, and they would post signs on the canyon wall showing the date and depth. Every few years another set of signs would show up lower down. The melting sped up significantly over the last 10 years when there was still some ice at the bottom. I did not notice any signs this past June. I wasn't looking hard but maybe it's moot now and they have removed the signs.
 
Moto-Charlie said:
When I first started riding there 40+ years ago the Pasterze Glacier was probably 3/4+ full in that now empty canyon hole.
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Ditto... but:

The word Pasterze is derived from the Slovenian word pastir (shepherd) or pastirica (shepherdess) as well as the Latin pastor and originally means pasture or alpine pasture...

Findings of wood and peat released by the glacier between 2009 and 2010 suggest that in the period 5000 to 1500 BC there was moor vegetation and pastureland in the area of today's Pasterze.
An analysis by the University of Innsbruck was able to detect pollen from grasses and gentian. Coprophilic fungi (dung fungi) prove that pasture areas were used for livestock breeding.
A piece of wood that was examined by the University of Graz belongs to a pine tree with 200 annual rings that grew there 7,000 years ago (in the post-glacial warm phase).
(source German Wiki, unfortunately does the English version not cover the research, results and conclusions...)
 
ST1100Y said:
Nah, just the opposite...
newbies/slow folks right behind the guide, they determine his pace* there...
Experienced ones always at the rear, they won't have much of a problem to catch up; i.e. after passing vehicles/other obstructions...
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I appreciate the perspective. It is possible that I'm simply the odd man out when it comes to how my groups ride. I try hard to make sure everyone is an experienced rider (able and willing to pass cars, ride in the rain, comfortable with high narrow roads, no guardrails, etc.) I also make it clear I like to ride at a fun pace when the road and conditions allow and that we will sort out the slower riders if they can't keep up.

I also make it clear that if there are riders who want to go faster than me, they are welcome to do so. We usually wait until we get to a pass road where there are not many turnoffs on the way up or down and I wave them by me. They wait at the top at the Refugio or for photos, we all show up within a couple of minutes, and they are off again heading down the other side. I've had some really good riders on my tours as well as various levels of racers and an ex-factory superbike racer (multiple tours with his friends) all come on tour and my approach seems to work, at least for me.

Being from America I tend to adhere pretty much to the speed limits in the towns and villages (population areas) and then ride more liberally up in the mountains. If we are all experienced riders we don't get too strung out. I have never used a sweep rider at the rear in 25+ years of running tours. On the rare occasion when someone does fall behind or out of sight due to construction, stop lights, etc. the rider who was in front and has lost sight will start flashing his headlights. The flashing works its way up to me and we find a safe place to pull over. The wayward rider usually shows up a few minutes after we pull over. If not, I go back and find them. This might happen once every 5 - 6 tours, not an issue.
 
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