The electric PAN - ST1300 - my next project.

Tony, firstly congratulations on the ABS job :ukflag1:, :yr1:. In a County Durham sort of way.
Secondly you state the NM at 5000 rpm, I thought electric motors provide constant torque from 1 to whatever is possible.
Thirdly you don't need the gearbox, you only need to retain the output shaft and drive shaft. I agree it makes a lot of sense to retain these but the gearbox won't be light and weight will be your enemy here. Whilst not easy (understatement) if you could connect the motor by gear or chain to the output shaft then you will only need space for batteries and controller. Thankfully there's lots of space in there for everything and I'm guessing you will be mounting the batteries as low as possible.
Good luck. I think the ABS job will turn out easy compared to this.
Upt'North.
 
Now, not wishing to start a Moly thread, why not run a hub motor and get rid of all the existing drive weight.
It could end up lighter and with a lower COG than an ICE Pan.
Upt'North.

QQ图片20180425150802.jpg
 
Someone in the Dallas area was working on this, or said they were, a few years ago... I don't remember who it was, he wasn't very active on the site and never came back with a final solution so not sure if it was ever completed.
 
Turbine2 said:
This sounds like a fascinating project and I look forward to your updates.

I am curious though, given that the electric motor gives max torque at 0 revs and most electric vehicles don’t have a gearbox what made you decide on keeping a gearbox?

Given the way that the ICE is being pushed out at the moment I think you are on to a great idea.
Click to expand...

hi turbine,
I did first think of having a straight-line electric motor - coupling - driveshaft. but I thought this may be difficult to ride , always needing the throttle on , or the bike would simply stop rapidily with the higher speeds. ( 70mph to zero on the motorway does not sound favourable at all !!) hence I wanted to use the option for clutch & gearbox , so if needed to the gears & clutch would give me better controllability.

the previous 20kw motor I looked at , only rev'ed to 5000rpm. although the torque was near to the original engine , this this would limit the overall performance. (i.e. speed)

I found this motor on ebay which is 60kw and rev's to 14,000 rpm and is around 82 Horsepower.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EV-MOTOR...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

the next issue now , is

1. how many batteries do I need and what type..... ?

2. how do I graft this onto the current engine and gearbox …… ?

Batteries.

The batterys I am looking at so far come from a Nissan leaf , there is some second hand versions on ebay :

www.ebay.co.uk

3 x 1670Wh Modules | Lithium | Powerwall | EV | 14.5V | 112Ah | eBay

Capacity 112Ah per Module (Max). Capacity 1670Wh per Module. Powerwall | EV Project. Mass 8.7kg per Module. Height 68mm per Module. Width 222mm per Module. WHAT'S INCLUDED NISSAN LEAF MODULE. 8 x Cells per Module (3.65V per cell).
www.ebay.co.uk

I think I will need 4 in total so far , ( probably double that in the long run.) these I intend to equalise the weight in the two side panniers. they weigh around 8kg each , so 16kg a side for four. I will need to design some sort of carriage / containment for these I am obviously loosing the exhaust silencers & manifold ,so this in theory should balance out the weight, and not effect the handling.

then a design a dual function junction box / connectors / for the harnesses to :

  • Charger point for Lithium ion batteries .
  • Power the cut version of the standard bike harness. ( and a regulator to supply correct voltage and current. ( same as standard battery)
  • New Power harness to power go to the motor controller and power the 60kw motor

Engine ( grafting the electro unit on )

the plan is:

  • Remove cylinder heads
  • Remove starter motor & alternator.
  • Remove combustion chambers/barrels & pistons from crankshaft.
  • Make a capping off plate or plates to cover the holes where the barrels where.
  • Calculate / figure out the best method of bracketry & gearing to fit the electric motor onto the flywheel direct.

once these are crafted , I need to test to make sure it work , then cobble this all together into the bike.

once I start this process , I will start posting photos of the progress and results.

I think for starters , I need to make space in garage :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
technotony007 said:
not sure wether this is a negative comment or not ????? , plenty of people of changed there powerplants to electric EV motors in there motorbikes all over the world. hence the question ……..:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I hope you have a large machine shop. I can't imagine trying to adapt an electric motor to an st while using the trans and clutch the way the honda designed it , clutch in front, trans in back. All electric bike I have read about are chain drive and no need for a clutch and transmission. It seems like you would have to design your own engine. The frame has to be redesigned, the engine on an st is part of the frame support, you need a full frame to support the weight of the new engine and batteries. IMO it would be cheaper to by a new electric bike, and fit the st plastics on it.
 
Erdoc48 said:
This will come across as a criticism of the idea, and it’s not at all meant that way:
- mounting a motor and batteries with a controller in a frame not designed for it will be a particular challenge and with a change in weight of the bike overall (assume it’s heavier with a battery pack) will affect the existing suspension and how the bike turns and handles (I would assume). If you use a smaller battery to save weight, mileage will suffer, so that limits the bike‘s utility.

I guess what I’m saying is that trying to convert an ICE bike to electric may be a time consuming exercise, expensive to buy the components to do it, and might be a real headache to get it all to work together vs planning a bike from zero to be an electric.

I’ve seen cars converted this way, and I think the idea is quite good...it’s just that you’re going to be limited in terms of miles on electric and if you can charge on the fly when out (think level 2 or 3 charging) or will you have to make sure not to ride out of a certain radius such that you can get the bike home to recharge.

I have researched the Zero bikes as well as the H-D electric and love the idea, but I think for a designed to be electric bike, there’s still a far way to go such that mileage isn’t such a huge limitation.

As for your project, if the cost to do it and the ‘tinker factor’ is what you want, then by all means, go for it- it would be very cool to see a Pan that can do some reasonable mileage on electric power (say, > 50 miles) and handle like the original.

Best of luck with the construction.
Click to expand...

Hi Erdoc48,

Appreciate any positive feedback , and all the balances of reasons, thoughts, etc. on this.... The way the technology is presently, and the Perverse way my mind thinks .

The main hurdles with this project are currently in two ways. Costs , and the limited mileage range of the batteries,

The thoughts in my head at the moment with the way things are going in future with regards to prices of the mineral oils , climate issues, etc.

I don't want for myself to be Taxed to death on my favourite hobby / Pass time which has always been motorbikes. ( and the ST which is the best bike ever in my opinion :thumb:)

The plan for this bike is :

  • find a means of grafting a latest type of similar/suitable powered EV motor onto the current mechanical design. ( i.e. removal / replacment of combustion engine from current gearbox/clutch/ drive drive.)
  • changing the wiring / harnesses accordingly.
  • Using ( at the moment) the most affordable second hand car battery's ( or the latest tech I can afford, which is currently lithum ion.)

Once I have completed the above , and as the battery technology improves in time, and the combustion engine eventually dies off or becomes to expensive for me to afford to run anymore. I will keep upgrading the power sources & wiring as technology improves ( i.e. batteries ) and evolve my most favourites bike ever accordingly.

( Trying to leave the brakes / suspension / handling and near to standard as possible.)

That may sound like "madness" to some , but at least I am educating myself in a positive manner , and enjoying the challenge in the long run.

Hope that makes sense , and puts to bed any negative criticism / Views from those who chose to sit on the fence in life, and wonder relevance of such a project to life this may have. :rolleyes:

Plus I hope if this proves simple , and cost effective it may inspire others to do the same or similar and share the knowledge so to speak !

regards


tony
 
sky.high said:
Guess I'm okay with this so long as a retrofit gas engine is possible to turn it back to an ST, everyone is precious, there will be no more.
Click to expand...

I am trying to work on that basis , In case i fail...…and I starts to cost to much. but I do like a challenge .... :biggrin:
 
Upt' North said:
Tony, firstly congratulations on the ABS job :ukflag1:, :yr1:. In a County Durham sort of way.
Secondly you state the NM at 5000 rpm, I thought electric motors provide constant torque from 1 to whatever is possible.
Thirdly you don't need the gearbox, you only need to retain the output shaft and drive shaft. I agree it makes a lot of sense to retain these but the gearbox won't be light and weight will be your enemy here. Whilst not easy (understatement) if you could connect the motor by gear or chain to the output shaft then you will only need space for batteries and controller. Thankfully there's lots of space in there for everything and I'm guessing you will be mounting the batteries as low as possible.
Good luck. I think the ABS job will turn out easy compared to this.
Upt'North.
Click to expand...

Thanks fella , :thumb: . Agree about the NM & 5000 RPM , My thoughts on this was power applied from similar capacity of power ( plus being readily available) which would be adjustable / controllable from the throttle.I am still open and looking into different types of EV motors as I haven't committed to buying ay as yet. just getting the basics ready.... until I strip the donor engine down , and weigh what I have. I believe with what's left to use ( include bracketry , I will ( in my min that is) have a powerplant lighter that before. The torque in theory should be fine for shaft drive , as I intend to shift have the clutch which should eliminate any harsh / shock loads that I would get from a direct to electric motor coupling / mechanical drive. the Cush rubbers in the rear wheel would soften this partially , but not in the long run I feel. The controllers are only about 150 to 200 mm square . so I was planning to hollow out the fuel tanks underside and have fit a power junction bos and controller in there. ( maybe space for a few batteries too !

still lots of things think about ..:think1:


Upt' North said:
Now, not wishing to start a Moly thread, why not run a hub motor and get rid of all the existing drive weight.
It could end up lighter and with a lower COG than an ICE Pan.
Upt'North.

QQ图片20180425150802.jpg
Click to expand...

All idea's are welcome Upt'North :thumb: ,I will look into them, but I think for first glance the power capacity required / handling may be an issue, and i will lose the function of the gearbox & clutch. My original concept is ( like the ABS project) is a bolt on method.. that could change of course .... :biggrin:

Can we arrange an RTE for summer 2021 so I can ride it :please1:.
Upt'North.

Of course you can , but I need to finish it first of course . It may inspire you to make the first ST1100 electric ............ :thumb:
 
Mellow said:
Someone in the Dallas area was working on this, or said they were, a few years ago... I don't remember who it was, he wasn't very active on the site and never came back with a final solution so not sure if it was ever completed.
Click to expand...

Hi mellow ,
Do you have a link to his thread, just out of interest ? ,

regards

tony
 
technotony007 said:
I did first think of having a straight-line electric motor - coupling - driveshaft. but I thought this may be difficult to ride , always needing the throttle on , or the bike would simply stop rapidily with the higher speeds. ( 70mph to zero on the motorway does not sound favourable at all !!) hence I wanted to use the option for clutch & gearbox , so if needed to the gears & clutch would give me better controllability.
Click to expand...
I imagine a good controller can be designed to minimize "engine" (regenerative) braking unless the brake is applied, but it should mimic a standard motorcycle somewhat.

I found this motor on ebay which is 60kw and rev's to 14,000 rpm and is around 82 Horsepower.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EV-MOTOR-60KW-14000RPM-137NM-ELECTRIC-PROJECT-EMRAX-REPLACEMENT/293332459835?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Click to expand...
That motor is rated at 400v 3ph, so is not suitable for DC drive without a suitable converter.

the next issue now , is

1. how many batteries do I need and what type..... ?

2. how do I graft this onto the current engine and gearbox …… ?
Click to expand...
1. The question is "what battery voltage do I need, and what quantity of batteries of what voltage each will add to the required voltage when wired in series?"

2. Here's the real project. You have to mount the motor to the frame securely enough that its own torque doesn't rip it from its position, but transmits all its power to the drive shaft. This is all mechanical work.

I am firmly in the "lose the clutch and transmission" camp. There is no transmission case separate from the engine like a Harley. There is only a single assembly. Both of these images are from the same angle:

st1100enginec.jpg


Eb163-2001-01-Honda-St1100-Engine-Assembly.jpg


Wouldn't it be easier to connect your motor's shaft directly (or indirectly) to the U-joint on the drive shaft (#1 in the drawing) than to try to cut apart an engine/transmission and try to figure out how to keep the clutch and transmission?:

94-Honda-ST1100-ST-1100-Pan-European-drive.jpg
0_0.png


Besides trying to figure out how to seal and keep a wet-plate clutch and transmission lubricated, and how to connect a motor to them, you'd save a LOT of weight and space for more battery capacity. The fewer parts you need to make or adapt, the better.

I'll respond with more later.
 
technotony007 said:
Hi mellow ,
Do you have a link to his thread, just out of interest ? ,

regards

tony
Click to expand...
I searched after I posted and couldn't find anything, it was a long time ago and he never posted anything about it, sorry.
 
Larry Fine said:
I imagine a good controller can be designed to minimize "engine" (regenerative) braking unless the brake is applied, but it should mimic a standard motorcycle somewhat.


That motor is rated at 400v 3ph, so is not suitable for DC drive without a suitable converter.


1. The question is "what battery voltage do I need, and what quantity of batteries of what voltage each will add to the required voltage when wired in series?"

2. Here's the real project. You have to mount the motor to the frame securely enough that its own torque doesn't rip it from its position, but transmits all its power to the drive shaft. This is all mechanical work.

I am firmly in the "lose the clutch and transmission" camp. There is no transmission case separate from the engine like a Harley. There is only a single assembly. Both of these images are from the same angle:

st1100enginec.jpg


Eb163-2001-01-Honda-St1100-Engine-Assembly.jpg


Wouldn't it be easier to connect your motor's shaft directly (or indirectly) to the U-joint on the drive shaft (#1 in the drawing) than to try to cut apart an engine/transmission and try to figure out how to keep the clutch and transmission?:

94-Honda-ST1100-ST-1100-Pan-European-drive.jpg
0_0.png


Besides trying to figure out how to seal and keep a wet-plate clutch and transmission lubricated, and how to connect a motor to them, you'd save a LOT of weight and space for more battery capacity. The fewer parts you need to make or adapt, the better.

I'll respond with more later.
Click to expand...

Thank you Larry ,

this is very useful , and good food for thought. I will be stripping the donor engine in the next few weeks hopefully so i will get a better idea of what is feasible and method bracketry / capping open areas. I do intend to keep the clutch and gearbox wet so I do indeed to give this bit some though.

I think the direct drive would be easier in the long run , but until i have a look at the stripped down motor , and how I intend to plan to fit the EV drive motor. I should know better at this point.


from your pics above, these looks to be a ST1100 motor . There is differences with the st1300 where my Planned design thoughts would differ.

the alternator seems to be mounted in a different place. from the photos below ( in yellow in the first one ) .



imagine if we ,

s-l1000a.jpg

st1300engine.jpg

  • Remove cylinder heads
  • Remove starter motor & alternator.
  • Remove combustion chambers/barrels & pistons from crankshaft.
  • Make a capping off plate or plates ( & gaskets) to cover/ seals the holes where the barrels bases where.
  • construct/design a Gearing shaft to the New EV motor to fit the electric motor onto the flywheel direct ( see yellow ring ) . which then fits in where the alternator was , and mounting bracketry would attached to the existing aligned alternator bolt holes , and utilises the new barrel based capping plates for support.
A lot of this can be done cheaply , utilising what we have …..

thoughts ?

regards

tony
 
I just realized you’re in the UK (don’t know why I didn’t see that before) - I love electrics, I really do and want your project to succeed (hopefully reasonably cheaply and with not too much time invested). How much is gas now in the UK? Here in the US, it’s pretty cheap and by me in South Carolina, I just filled up the gray ST at $2.16 per gallon after a ride. The only issue with electric vehicles here (both bikes and cars) is the price. Right now, they’re not competitive with an ICE car that can be had for $23K US- when they get the ‘magic formula’ of 300 miles per charge and quick charging of ~ 20 minutes (I’m talking when on a long trip, not charging at home as that doesn’t matter too much), then I would consider one. My brother in law and a co-worker have Model 3’s and love them, but they were $60K and $41K US respectively (differing option packages). Same with the Zero bikes- with the extra battery pack, they I would assume run near $20K and with mixed riding you might get 130 miles per charge.
 
Erdoc48 said:
I just realized you’re in the UK (don’t know why I didn’t see that before) - I love electrics, I really do and want your project to succeed (hopefully reasonably cheaply and with not too much time invested). How much is gas now in the UK? Here in the US, it’s pretty cheap and by me in South Carolina, I just filled up the gray ST at $2.16 per gallon after a ride. The only issue with electric vehicles here (both bikes and cars) is the price. Right now, they’re not competitive with an ICE car that can be had for $23K US- when they get the ‘magic formula’ of 300 miles per charge and quick charging of ~ 20 minutes (I’m talking when on a long trip, not charging at home as that doesn’t matter too much), then I would consider one. My brother in law and a co-worker have Model 3’s and love them, but they were $60K and $41K US respectively (differing option packages). Same with the Zero bikes- with the extra battery pack, they I would assume run near $20K and with mixed riding you might get 130 miles per charge.
Click to expand...

Hi Erdoc48,
Petrol in Uk in around £5 per gallon , it usually costs me £30 to £40 to fill my bike. My expectational plan is to make my bike have a target range of 300miles. the expectation is to able to charge the bike overnight in my garage.

although i am petrol head , and will use the other bike , more often.

Until the current present day technology advances, and the cost lowers , I will just have evolve this project as I can.

I am hoping to spend around £2 -3 K on this as i can afford it for now.

i am just at the planning stage and trying to work out what i need. it looks like at the moment I am going to be limited to a 20 - 30 kw EV motor, due the size and weight of the batteries required.

required

tony
 
Tony, there's the rub. Everything I posted about the 1100 applies to the 1300. The ST engine, 1100 or 1300, does not have separate cylinder barrels like an air-cooled engine. It has a single, one-piece engine block more like a car engine.

See the yellow circle you made on the first pic? The two engine parting lines, at 45-degree angles down and to each side of your circle, are where the heads separate from the block, not where the cylinders separate from the crankcase.

Look more closely at your cutaway diagram. See where the heads of the valves are? That's where the heads meet the block. The cylinder bores are in the block. The cylinders, crankshaft, clutch, and transmission share a single casting.

In the very last pic, the thick blue arrow shows the transmission output shaft connection. That's where I think you should adapt the electric motor. Where else could you "inject" motor force into the drive train? Not at the alternator hole.
 
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