The electric PAN - ST1300 - my next project.

[technotony007]

Tony, there's the rub. Everything I posted about the 1100 applies to the 1300. The ST engine, 1100 or 1300, does not have separate cylinder barrels like an air-cooled engine. It has a single, one-piece engine block more like a car engine.

See the yellow circle you made on the first pic? The two engine parting lines, at 45-degree angles down and to each side of your circle, are where the heads separate from the block, not where the cylinders separate from the crankcase.

Look more closely at your cutaway diagram. See where the heads of the valves are? That's where the heads meet the block. The cylinder bores are in the block. The cylinders, crankshaft, clutch, and transmission share a single casting.

In the very last pic, the thick blue arrow shows the transmission output shaft connection. That's where I think you should adapt the electric motor. Where else could you "inject" motor force into the drive train? Not at the alternator hole.

Hi Larry ,
some good points there , So before I start on the engine strip down , t looks like I might have to live with the cylinder barrels in the assembly , to reduce areas to seal in. Once I have removed the pistons from the Crankshaft, I should only need to make two rectangular blanking off Plates & Rubber gaskets for the cylinder head bases on both sides...

there will be of course other little blanking plates for the Knock sensors , etc. but I am still in two minds on what to do with the oil pressure switch ? I intend to have the same amount of oil in the engine ( probably a thinner grade with anti friction additives.) and it should still have good pressure with the EV motors power driving it.


Crankcases exploded below :



I think there will be still a fair bit of weight removed , with the cylinder heads , starter motor , FI system and alternator removed.

As a guess, i would say probably half the weight of orignal would be saved.

 

[Larry Fine]

Hi Larry ,
some good points there ,

I do that sometimes.

I intend to have the same amount of oil in the engine ( probably a thinner grade with anti friction additives.) and it should still have good pressure with the EV motors power driving it.

A. There goes your wet clutch, which will slip badly with friction reduction additives.
B. There goes a substantial portion of your motor power driving that extra machinery.
C. There goes a substantial portion of your weight and volume capacity for batteries.

I think there will be still a fair bit of weight removed , with the cylinder heads , starter motor , FI system and alternator removed.

As a guess, i would say probably half the weight of orignal would be saved.

I think you'd be dropping a much smaller amount of weight than you're thinking. On any electric vehicle, minimizing weight and maximizing mechanical efficiency and power storage capacity are paramount.

Plus, leaving that much material in the frame will force you to place the few batteries you are able to squeeze in out of the desired low and central locations and into high and outward locations, ruining handling.

The idea is to get rid of as much of the original drive train as possible, not leave in as much as possible. If you were building an electric bike from scratch, would you look to add half of an engine in the design?

 

[technotony007]

I do that sometimes.

A. There goes your wet clutch, which will slip badly with friction reduction additives.
B. There goes a substantial portion of your motor power driving that extra machinery.
C. There goes a substantial portion of your weight and volume capacity for batteries.


I think you'd be dropping a much smaller amount of weight than you're thinking. On any electric vehicle, minimizing weight and maximizing mechanical efficiency and power storage capacity are paramount.

Plus, leaving that much material in the frame will force you to place the few batteries you are able to squeeze in out of the desired low and central locations and into high and outward locations, ruining handling.

The idea is to get rid of as much of the original drive train as possible, not leave in as much as possible. If you were building an electric bike from scratch, would you look to add half of an engine in the design?

Hi larry ,
really appreciate your thoughts so far …. ,

with reference to your Point A , I didnt think of that , to be honest. I have added it to my other pan but it has not caused ill effects ( slipping ) as yet. Think i might just oil change just in case !

with regards to Point B, not entirely sure on this one. Depend on the eventually selection in EV motor I choose , will have the near enough required torque if not more to the standard st13 combustion engine. As below

standard st13 engine - delivers 118 HP, (86.1 kw) @8000 rpm , 117 nm torque at 6500 rpm.

choices of EV motors so far are :

1. BLDC Motor ( goldenmotor) 20 - 50 kw or 33 - 67 HP , 160 nm of torque at 5000rpm ( suggestions so far , ponder to it being under powered.)
2. BMW X6 HVH250 hybrid motor (ebay) - 63kw or @ 280 volts , max rpm 10600 ( trying to research if feasible.)
3. EV motor 60 kw ( ebay ) , 137nm of torque at 14000 rpm. ( 3 phase , so power would have to huge , so probably impracticable.)

I would like to choose selection 1 , but the I unsure for $1800 USD. the controllers and power for this reaily available. But, it will be an expensive mistake if it is actually underpowered . The OEM assures me it is powerful enough , but I need to do some more research.

The close second at the moment is the item 2 , the only downside is finding the controller for it and working out how to supply a power supply at 280v from batteries.

Point C : I disagree unitl proved otherwise wise the weight. once i strip this whole down and weight it , and then weigh the barrels seperatly , i think i might only save an extra 5 - 8 kg at the most. i can look into this further once the engine is stripped down.

The main weight / COG of the bike will be similar and planned as original, as overall the batteries will hopefully at 4 x 8 kg each( which will be install in the side panniers , will counter the removed heavier mechanical items lower down , such as

• Exhaust and silencers - ( est 40kg)
• Starter motor - ( est 3kg )
• Alternator - ( est 10kg )
• Cylinder heads , cams covers , chain, FI , etc. - ( est 40kg)

total estimated removed weight - approx. 100kg

added weigh being added :

• electric EV motor - ( est 30 kg)
• extra controller system and cabling - ( est 5 kg )
• battery lithum ion car units - ( est 4 or 8 units x 8kg = 32kg or 64 kg.)

the above should hopefully make sense , and describe my thoughts on the lower SOG.

regards

tony

 

[Erdoc48]

Not sure about this statement/ question: Are Li-ion batts heavier than LiFePO4? Would that potentially be a better (but possibly more expensive) solution? Just wondering...

I’m only asking as the owner of the electric Goodwing on YouTube has them (and are mounted everywhere on the bike, including the trunk!

 

[Larry Fine]

I'm still seeing the entire engine block with clutch and transmission, oil and pump, and all of that rotating mass wasting energy.

I wonder how much the engine block, pistons and rods, crankshaft, clutch assembly, transmission shafts and gears, etc. all weigh.


I'm still trying to understand what you feel is the advantage to keeping any of that, much less all of that on an electric bike.

 

[STinAZ]

Once you remove the rods and pistons your crank will be an out of balance mess, is that what you plan on connecting the motor to?

 

[technotony007]

Not sure about this statement/ question: Are Li-ion batts heavier than LiFePO4? Would that potentially be a better (but possibly more expensive) solution? Just wondering...

I’m only asking as the owner of the electric Goodwing on YouTube has them (and are mounted everywhere on the bike, including the trunk!

Do you have the link to this ?

 

[technotony007]

Once you remove the rods and pistons your crank will be an out of balance mess, is that what you plan on connecting the motor to?

I plan to connect the EV motor via a coupling / spline shaft , where the alternator used to be. So in effect it will drive the flywheel.

regards

tony

 

[Erdoc48]

do you h

Do you have the link to this ?

 

[SMSW]

I agree with Larry in post 46. Spinning all of the internal mass of the OEM engine will rob you of a good portion of the power from your electric motor - AND decrease your range. I don't think you are going to do better than the completely engineered electric bikes out there regarding performance, handling and range, especially if you haul around excess weight in the engine block.

This month's MCN mentioned that shaft drive robs as much as 30% of an ICE's crankshaft hp. I think you will be giving up an equally large chunk of power needlessly.

For a moment, assume you ditch the engine and use the electric motor to directly drive the U-joint. After all is said and done, you could always add ingots down low to bring the weight back so you don't have to reengineer the suspension. Since automakers go throught contortions to decrease weight, I think adding or carrying excess parasitic weight around on your bike would be counterproductive.

 

[Larry Fine]

I plan to connect the EV motor via a coupling / spline shaft , where the alternator used to be. So in effect it will drive the flywheel.

I had a feeling that was your intention. I doubt that portion of the internal parts are able to transfer that much torque backwards through the drive train, as they were only designed to turn the alternator. Regardless, it's still a very inefficient power pathway.

 

[technotony007]

than

Thanks for that

 

[Larry Fine]

Now, having seen the motor in that Goldwing, imagine fitting all of that around your engine, even half of it.

Bottom line: There is no way a motor strong enough to push a full-size bike will fit where the alternator is.

 

[Shawn K]

I plan to connect the EV motor via a coupling / spline shaft , where the alternator used to be. So in effect it will drive the flywheel.

regards

tony

You're missing his larger point. Removal of the pistons and conrods but retention of everything else (because of your insistence on keeping all of the transmission) will have the remainder of your contraption shaking like a paint shaker.

Do whatever your heart desires, but I can't fathom why you would keep any of the original engine. I don't think you're really grasping how much weight and space it consumes.

The two biggest obstacles to an effective electric motorcycle right now are space and weight (both in terms of battery technology and machine dimensions). By insisting that you retain the entire engine case and transmission, you're going exactly the opposite direction that you need to go.

 

[ST Gui]

looks like I might have to live with the cylinder barrels in the assembly

Hey you can use the empty cylinders to store more batteries!

 

[Nashcat]

I keep thinking about the point that Larry brought up. If you were designing the bike from scratch, would you design it around an empty engine case, plus a unneeded transmission? I believe you’re going this route because you envision that using the alternator shaft for the input, will allow you to bolt up the motor and go. Being a simple design, does not make it a better design.

You mentioned the reason for the transmission was to eliminate shock to the drive train. There is no shock, using a direct coupled electric motor, only 100% available torque at startup, which will be regulated by your motor controller.

I would remove the engine and transmission and mount the motor to the forward end of the driveshaft, and be finished in less time than it takes to remove the heads and pistons.

Have you calculated the power loss in driving the clutch and transmission?

Im no expert, but I’m not just speculating, either. I have 35 years experience in the design and upkeep of electrical driven industrial equipment, ranging from fractional horsepower up to a soft-start, variable speed 500HP.

Make sure you program in a walking speed reverse, to back out of downhill parking spaces. Won’t cost anything, except for some programming of the controller.

Ride Safe
John

 

[SteveST1300]

I know nothing about this but for a speed controller/Throttle wouldn't something like a rheostat work. There must be an easier way to control the speed than the MC transmission.

 

[T_C]

Are Li-ion batts heavier than LiFePO4? Would that potentially be a better (but possibly more expensive) solution? Just wondering...

In determining, watts per kg, or watts per cubic, traditional Li-ion is the winner. On the average, twice the density of LiFeP04.
LiFePO4 Specific energy: 90–110 Wh/kg
Energy density: 220 Wh/L

LiIon Specific energy >160 Wh/kg
Energy density >400 Wh/L

So why use LiFe? Long life. You might get a 1000 cycles out of LiIons before you start noticing a reduction in capacity. Switch to LiFePO4 and you'll bee in the 4k to 6k and still have 80% of the original capacity.

 

[technotony007]

I'm still seeing the entire engine block with clutch and transmission, oil and pump, and all of that rotating mass wasting energy.

I wonder how much the engine block, pistons and rods, crankshaft, clutch assembly, transmission shafts and gears, etc. all weigh.

Hi Larry ,
as an estimate I reckon I can save approx. 100 kg
I'm still trying to understand what you feel is the advantage to keeping any of that, much less all of that on an electric bike.

My concept of doing this , is first and advance my knowledge learn and electric EV systems ( which current I am just Newbie !) . I wanted to keep the bike as a EV motor bolt on option , still with a functioning clutch and gearbox , for controllability, partially keep the weigh lower down and the main structure of the bike intact ,not to effect any of the handling ,etc.

Once you remove the rods and pistons your crank will be an out of balance mess, is that what you plan on connecting the motor to?

Hi STinAZ,
The balancing is something I had not considerd to be honest , I was planning to connect to the flywheel were there alternator connects to was my first though. looks like I will need to look at the direct power line again.

I agree with Larry in post 46. Spinning all of the internal mass of the OEM engine will rob you of a good portion of the power from your electric motor - AND decrease your range. I don't think you are going to do better than the completely engineered electric bikes out there regarding performance, handling and range, especially if you haul around excess weight in the engine block.

This month's MCN mentioned that shaft drive robs as much as 30% of an ICE's crankshaft hp. I think you will be giving up an equally large chunk of power needlessly.

For a moment, assume you ditch the engine and use the electric motor to directly drive the U-joint. After all is said and done, you could always add ingots down low to bring the weight back so you don't have to reengineer the suspension. Since automakers go throught contortions to decrease weight, I think adding or carrying excess parasitic weight around on your bike would be counterproductive.

That's definitely an Plan 'B' option SMSW, to do the direct drive to U- joint. I would need to make a robust structural mounting to compensate the missing engine structure. this would mean a different approach to Power / KW I would need in the EV motor. I probably would only need 20 to 30 kw with a drive drive solution. Rather than the 60kw to 80kw I would need to use with my current thoughts using the original gearbox and clutch. apparently from what I reading the controllers can be programmed to match power map of the ICE motor. ( which is food for though)

The downside to using the first plan would be the amount of batteries required , to power the 60 - 80 kw EV motor. Firstly and the cost & next would be excessive weight required to carry in batteries.

I had a feeling that was your intention. I doubt that portion of the internal parts are able to transfer that much torque backwards through the drive train, as they were only designed to turn the alternator. Regardless, it's still a very inefficient power pathway.

That is true Larry , but using the EV direct method might lose the character of the bikes handling,etc. Unless I find the right Programmable motor Controller , so I learn and program and minic the original ICE map. then try and match the lower weigh SOG with batteries and mountings.

You're missing his larger point. Removal of the pistons and conrods but retention of everything else (because of your insistence on keeping all of the transmission) will have the remainder of your contraption shaking like a paint shaker.

I understand the point more now shawn, If I don't change my mind and just the direct electric route. I would need to look at designing :

• A new alternative crankshaft , which would be the straight shaft ( without the counter weights, and cam chain drives ) with a gearing / sprocket method to correct ratio required from the EV motor. ( could possible use a chain , but meshed gears will always be better.)

from the exploded view below :




if I was to make a straight line shaft , which dimensional matches the OEM crankshaft , with the splines at both ends, with no counterbalances , bearings matched to the casings , and suitable ( ratio calculated ) Meshed gear drive from the EV motor.

Surely this would be best way forward , ensuring balance is maintained , and a large reduction for Power required to drive.....

Do whatever your heart desires, but I can't fathom why you would keep any of the original engine. I don't think you're really grasping how much weight and space it consumes.

The two biggest obstacles to an effective electric motorcycle right now are space and weight (both in terms of battery technology and machine dimensions). By insisting that you retain the entire engine case and transmission, you're going exactly the opposite direction that you need to go.

My reason being or wanting to use the partial function of the engine to :

• Have more control with the clutch , instead of a rapid drop in speed when backing off the throttle. ( engine braking.)
• keep as much as handling due weight low down / torsional structure from the original engine.
• keep the bike as near to original as possible to keep its character.
• I am a mechanical engineer by trade , so I am always of the mind set to fix things mechanically ,instead of electrically - I don't need to learn and educate myself to this point.

Hey you can use the empty cylinders to store more batteries!

Or somewhere to keep my 4 bottle of Vino on a long trip

In determining, watts per kg, or watts per cubic, traditional Li-ion is the winner. On the average, twice the density of LiFeP04.
LiFePO4 Specific energy: 90–110 Wh/kg
Energy density: 220 Wh/L

LiIon Specific energy >160 Wh/kg
Energy density >400 Wh/L

So why use LiFe? Long life. You might get a 1000 cycles out of LiIons before you start noticing a reduction in capacity. Switch to LiFePO4 and you'll bee in the 4k to 6k and still have 80% of the original capacity.

Not sure where question come from , i had always planned to use Li Ions batteries from a Nissan leaf car for example , dont know what the LifeP04 / LiFe batteries are ?

not sure which types are out there currently , or how many I will actually need , depending on the EV kw motor I choose ?


Thanks to everyone so far , really appreciate your thoughts , keep them coming............

Many minds working together works better , weighing up any unforeseen pitfalls, that one mind may miss....

 

[technotony007]

I know nothing about this but for a speed controller/Throttle wouldn't something like a rheostat work. There must be an easier way to control the speed than the MC transmission.

Yeah steve, but It would be finding the correct assembly/ unit , that is programable so you can match the Original ICE characteristics / MAP , I think 20 to 30 kw is the EV motor size to be the choice , on a direct drive system.

regards

tony