Bicycle steering video, also applies to motorcycles

[Larry Fine]

 

[STumped]

Very interesting, thanks!

 

[Jake]

Enjoyed the video. Returning to riding after a number of years off and re educating myself. The ST has enough bulk to highlight when I get things wrong and there is a lot of intuitive, that is to say stuff I didn't know I was doing, and counter intuitive stuff, things that feel wrong even though they are right. Videos like this and Mc rider, Fort Nine, Bret Tracks etc are great. Obviously, you don't want to over think it...but I learn better when I understand the detail. Thanks

 

[Shuey]

Fascinating video . . . thought provoking for sure.

I'm not sure it is fully applicable to motorcycling though. It translates well at low speeds, but I'm skeptical how well it applies at higher speeds.

At slow speeds, my motorcycle rides just like shown for a bicycle. Counter-steering, turning momentarily a little in the opposite direction, to set balance followed by steering in the direction desired works just fine to make the turn I want. However, as speed increases I reach a point on the motorcycle where it seems I'm only counter-steering throughout the entire change in direction.

Turning, whether on a bicycle or a motorcycle is so intuitive I'll be paying more attention the next time my wheels start rolling.

I'll look forward to following this thread for possible additional discussion and insights.

Thanks Larry!
Shuey

 

[spiderman302]

As a kid I grew up riding a bicycle everywhere. I quickly learned that I could let go of the handle bars and just peddle. I could turn the bike by leaning and bring it back straight. It was much more comfortable to sit straight up than be bent over the handle bars. I only touched the handle bars to stop with the hand brakes. It all becomes muscle memory and subconscious. On the ST I never let go of the handle bars, but I have a very light grip. I STeer the bike with my rear end by weight shifting and letting the weight shift turn the handle bars. My hands just follows what the bike does. If you are pushing and pulling on the handle bars you are working too hard. As the video shows the bike will steer itself by caster, weight and balance.

 

[dduelin]

As a kid I grew up riding a bicycle everywhere. I quickly learned that I could let go of the handle bars and just peddle. I could turn the bike by leaning and bring it back straight. It was much more comfortable to sit straight up than be bent over the handle bars. I only touched the handle bars to stop with the hand brakes. It all becomes muscle memory and subconscious. On the ST I never let go of the handle bars, but I have a very light grip. I STeer the bike with my rear end by weight shifting and letting the weight shift turn the handle bars. My hands just follows what the bike does. If you are pushing and pulling on the handle bars you are working too hard. As the video shows the bike will steer itself by caster, weight and balance.

This opens a can of worms. Yes, you can steer a ST1300 by simply shifting your weight but at speed you simply aren't able to make the bike turn very sharp and it doesn't work on winding roads unless they are interstate in nature.

A light grip on the handlebars is exactly what you want to have and pulling or pushing on the grip to counter steer through winding roads and tight S curves doesn't normally take much effort at all - it's normally barely perceptible. Many riders don't even know they are doing it - pushing the right grip to initiate a right turn. So a light grip is essential. We want to know what the front contact patch is doing and locked up wrists, elbows, and shoulders shuts down all feedback from the front wheel's contact patch.

If a bicycle weighs 40 lbs and the rider 180 the rider's shifting weight at 15 mph has much more influence than a 180 lb rider's weight on a 730 lb motorcycle going 15 mph much less going 55 mph. The racer then rider and racing coach and author Keith Code modified a motorcycle with a second set of handlebars that were bolted solidly to the bike and not the forks to teach students how counter steering works and forget about steering by shifting weight. He called it the NO BS Bike. No one that rode it ever talked again about steering by shifting weight.

Keith Code's No BS Bike<

soundrider.com

 

[dduelin]

Fascinating video . . . thought provoking for sure.

I'm not sure it is fully applicable to motorcycling though. It translates well at low speeds, but I'm skeptical how well it applies at higher speeds.

At slow speeds, my motorcycle rides just like shown for a bicycle. Counter-steering, turning momentarily a little in the opposite direction, to set balance followed by steering in the direction desired works just fine to make the turn I want. However, as speed increases I reach a point on the motorcycle where it seems I'm only counter-steering throughout the entire change in direction.

Turning, whether on a bicycle or a motorcycle is so intuitive I'll be paying more attention the next time my wheels start rolling.

I'll look forward to following this thread for possible additional discussion and insights.

Thanks Larry!
Shuey

Hey Shuey, speaking to the statement in bold I think when riding at speed you are are actually using two counter steering motions to initiate and hold a sustained turn. The first push of the right grip (or pull of the left grip) off sets the bike and rider to the right from the path of the vehicle and sets the motorcycle into a right hand turn and the second counter steer is the push on the left grip to stop the increasing lean and thus sets the radius of the turn. If you could be magically lifted or removed from the bike it would continue the right hand turn on it's own accord. But back to the right hand turn... when we clip the apex of the turn we "pick the bike up" to exit the turn by a push on the left grip to lessen or stop the right hand turn and bring it to vertical.

 

[Larry Fine]

As a kid I grew up riding a bicycle everywhere. I quickly learned that I could let go of the handle bars and just peddle. I could turn the bike by leaning and bring it back straight.

I rode a bicycle a lot, too, but while I could coast hands-free, I could never learn how to pedal hands-free.

On the ST I never let go of the handle bars, but I have a very light grip. I STeer the bike with my rear end by weight shifting and letting the weight shift turn the handle bars. My hands just follows what the bike does. If you are pushing and pulling on the handle bars you are working too hard. As the video shows the bike will steer itself by caster, weight and balance.

I, on the other hand, steer solely by counter-steering, and my weight-shifting follows.

 

[Larry Fine]

A light grip on the handlebars is exactly what you want to have and pulling or pushing on the grip to counter steer through winding roads and tight S curves doesn't normally take much effort at all - it's normally barely perceptible. Many riders don't even know they are doing it - pushing the right grip to initiate a right turn. So a light grip is essential. We want to know what the front contact patch is doing and locked up wrists, elbows, and shoulders shuts down all feedback from the front wheel's contact patch.

I discovered counter-steering by myself after three or four years of riding without realizing it.

But the ease with which a bike responds to steering pressure depends on suspension set-up, especially that which affects steering geometry.

 

[dduelin]

I discovered counter-steering by myself after three or four years of riding without realizing it.

But the ease with which a bike responds to steering pressure depends on suspension set-up, especially that which affects steering geometry.

Yes, the overall design of the bike has everything to do with how it handles. Some are oh so sweet and others not so much though careful attention to suspension adjustments can tweak steering geometry and help a bike steer better.

 

[spiderman302]

Ha Ha. I see his problem. The "control loop" at those speeds is too fast.
It causes the perceived instability which makes it hard to control and therefore proves nothing.

The physics is all the same.
You counter steer to cause the lean to turn.
or
you lean the bike, it will initially counter steer because the wheel was straight and pointing away from the turn.
the tire will then "fall" into the turn to correct it's self.

Get on a bicycle in a large parking lot, let go of the handle bars and ride.
Then do very large figure 8 loops. Make them smaller as you get better at it.
When you swing from going right to left you will see that the handle bars will automatically do the counter steer.

For me I do not think about it. But I will try to pay attention to the finer details when I ride later today.
-----------------------------------
edit:

The ride home made me realize that I have a separate variable that really complicates the analysis. --- the darkside tire.
It requires a greater counter force to over come its resistance to falling over.

 

[Larry Fine]

I agree that a bike (either kind) will automatically counter-steer in response to a weight shift.

What I do is strictly counter-steer all the time, which compensates for any weight distribution.

Try riding in a straight line while shifting your weight off to one side. You must counter-steer.

 

[Mark286]

Try riding in a straight line while shifting your weight off to one side. You must counter-steer.

The California Superbike School put out a video a few years ago using a modified "No B.S." (No Body Steering) bike that demonstrates the need to counter-steer.

 

[SMSW]

Turning, whether on a bicycle or a motorcycle is so intuitive I'll be paying more attention the next time my wheels start rolling.

That will for sure screw things up. After a while we steer unconsciously, bringing it to the forefront often confuses what to do and how much pressure is needed.

 

[Pop-Pop]

Enjoyed the video. Returning to riding after a number of years off and re educating myself. The ST has enough bulk to highlight when I get things wrong and there is a lot of intuitive, that is to say stuff I didn't know I was doing, and counter intuitive stuff, things that feel wrong even though they are right. Videos like this and Mc rider, Fort Nine, Bret Tracks etc are great. Obviously, you don't want to over think it...but I learn better when I understand the detail. Thanks

I went decades without a ride and bought my 11. Not really very smart! But, after a few k's, we found a way to get along! Learned a ton from vids!

 

[sirbike]

Even shifting your weight to initiate a lean creates a force in the opposite direction.

At the statement counter steering all the way through the turn, I’d check that by asking, are you applying pressure to counter the the geometric induced tendency for the bike to stabilize upright.
Then there is this idea of counter steering to initiate the turn then holding. However, if we are clear to only consider steering movement, there is no difference between riding in a straight line vs in a continuous turn, the balancing act of counter steering is what keeps us on a chosen path.

I used to wonder why I’d hit the surprise obstacle in the road when I tried to avoid it. And how can a rider ride a bike for 4 weeks or even 4 years then crash in a turn.
Well for some reason in an emergency one may suddenly revert back to the initial training of riding a tricycle.
It takes some training to get it ingrained that to be deep in a right turn the way out is to turn the bar to the right.
One way that I got comfortable with this was to say the ground is my friend.
Kieth Code’s book twist of the wrist set me in the right direction.

 

[mortenk]

I rode my MCs for many years without knowing what counter steering was. When I got my WA MC training they taught me and I thought "that's crazy talk". Then I tried it while riding and now understand what a difference it makes. I obviously did it unconsciously before, but it's so much more powerful when you are aware. Now I truly enjoy the very quick corrections I can make (if e.g. I see a pothole at the last minute), which I think makes me a better rider. I never think about leaning anymore - I always think "push right to turn right" and everything else just follows. This plus understanding how a change in speed affects your turn radius makes riding the twisties so much ore fun...

 

[Larry Fine]

At the statement counter steering all the way through the turn, I’d check that by asking, are you applying pressure to counter the the geometric induced tendency for the bike to stabilize upright.

If the rear suspension height (easiest single geometry adjustment) is set correctly for my weight, the steering torque required to lean the bike and that required to bring it back up are just about equal.

If the rear is set too low, then extra torque is required, the bike resists leaning, and controllability is reduced.

 

[spiderman302]

This is what happens when people focus on one variable of a multi variable equation. Just because it is dominate under certain conditions it does not cancel the other variables. The above N.B.S. bike video was poorly done. The fact that he turned left by leaning shows that leaning works. Jumping up and down, putting your foot out, shaking the bike demonstrates nothing. Larry points out that even rear height setting can make a difference in controllability. The rider should have showed his ability to ride a bicycle no handed and that he could turn the bicycle with balance control. Throwing any rider on a bike for this demo is like having an unskilled person show that juggling four balls can not be done. Balance control only is easy to do at slow speed but much harder and more dangerous to do at high speed. It does take skill to do it right.

Do not get me wrong. Counter steering does work and is the best way to precisely control and hold the bike through a curve.
Learning and understanding all the variables to this process may make you a better rider.

 

[Jake]

One of the best bits of advice I took, from the skills videos I've seen, was; 'the bike has to lean to turn, but that doesn't mean you have to'...so, in given circumstances, I prefer to stay upright and drop the bike over. Better visibility and the ability to correct on loose ground...though its arguable if you could correct a 300kg+ bike if she starts to go.