Bicycle steering video, also applies to motorcycles

[spiderman302]

@Larry Fine
If the rear suspension height (easiest single geometry adjustment) is set correctly for my weight, the steering torque required to lean the bike and that required to bring it back up are just about equal

Here is something you can try when turning. All three work!

A. keep your body vertical and push the bike into the curve with only counter steer.
B. lean with the bike as you counter steer.
C. lean more than the bike as you counter steer. (like racers do)

B - should require the least effort if your bike is balanced correctly.
The other too only take a little more effort.

 

[dduelin]

One of the best bits of advice I took, from the skills videos I've seen, was; 'the bike has to lean to turn, but that doesn't mean you have to'...so, in given circumstances, I prefer to stay upright and drop the bike over. Better visibility and the ability to correct on loose ground...though its arguable if you could correct a 300kg+ bike if she starts to go.

For low speed parking lot type speeds when counter steering is NOT involved this is a good practice and good advice but on the road at road speeds it's not a good practice to sit upright and push the bike down and away from you when going around corners. The main reason not to do this is you are increasing the bike's lean angle to go around an arc of a given radius. This gives up valuable ground clearance that might needed to avoid a road hazard that comes into view.

If you have to avoid the hazard you must be able to tighten up the arc of turn and in the case of a surprise decreasing radius turn to make the bike turn sharper in order to make the corner without running out of roadway and the bike with a bolt upright rider may have little extra lean angle to use before touching down hard parts. It's best technique to keep your upper body at minimum at the same lean angle of the bike or have your upper body leaning into the turn with your upper body at a greater lean angle then the bike is. You don't have to hang half off the bike like a motorcycle racer just keep your butt cheeks in the saddle and lean from above the hips. "Shoulder into the turn" or "bite the mirror."

 

[drrod]

 

[STumped]

For low speed parking lot type speeds when counter steering is NOT involved .....

Dave, I respect your posts and have actually learned quite a bit from them over the years but I am afraid I need to take exception to this. I taught the MSF Basic Rider Course for a few years. One of the things that we (they) emphasize is to land on your left foot at a stop (left foot down while right foot is still on the brake). I am sure most of us here, as experienced riders do this instinctively, or even deliberately. As you can imagine, many beginning riders have a balance problem and it's a 50/50 chance if they will stick out their left foot or right foot first, depending on which way the bike was leaning as they come to a stop (or come in like a duck landing on water, with both feet out! LOL). So, to help those students properly land on their left foot, I passed along a little tip that I picked up over the years. I would tell them that, as they come to a stop, just before they put their foot down, right before the bike actually stops, turn the bars to the right (push left). It will make the bike dip to the left and, voila! Left foot down first! Push left, go (or dip) left even works at 1 mph. For the experienced rider class, I would take it a step further. While at a complete stop, try to balance with both feet on the pegs for just a moment. Practice a few times to get close to balancing for at least a second or two. After you master that, try cranking the bars all the way right in a brisk motion. The bike will drop to the left and they will land on their left foot. Very handy when riding those tall ADV bike where one can't get both their feet down together. I have done it myself in real world situations when my approach was not the most stable (bumpy road, ripples in the pavement, etc.). If/when I felt the bike want to dip right when I stop, a quick turn of the bars to the right will correct the situation and I can land on my left foot as I intended.

Try it for yourself. I found it a very handy tool.

 

[Larry Fine]

I would tell them that, as they come to a stop, just before they put their foot down, right before the bike actually stops, turn the bars to the right (push left). It will make the bike dip to the left and, voila! Left foot down first! Push left, go (or dip) left even works at 1 mph.

Absolutely correct. I've been doing that for years, and I've used stopping as an example when discussing this.

 

[Jake]

I should clarify... I wasn't suggesting that leaning the bike over whilst the rider remained upright is preferential or ideal, just that its an option. What I took fro the advice that 'the bike has to lean to turn, but that doesn't mean you have to'...was the mental disconnect it allowed for a rider or a pillion. If rider or pillion not leaning is a better option, the reality is, it's not that big a factor. Obviously if you're belting along and reach a corner you're going to lean with the bike naturally, the point is...you don't have to. If the verge/bank/vegetation obscures your view of the exit, you can slide to the upper part of your seat and get a better vantage point. Any concern about remaining lean angle or change of centre of mass, I would say, is negligible/irrelevant on a heavy bike at realistic road speeds. That phrase just helped me get loose/relax on the bike again, helped my pillion out too.

 

[ad.hom]

I'll look forward to following this thread for possible additional discussion and insights.

Excellent

If you are pushing and pulling on the handle bars you are working too hard.

I disagree, if you're climbing around, moving your body weight, on an ST, you're working too hard. I steer with a mixture of my ankles & my arms, with a light hold on the bars.

The ankles: if you push down on either footpeg (and only one of them), every motorcycle ever made will start to fall in the direction you put weight on (you've caused an imbalance). Want to go left? Push on the left footpeg. That's good for minor direction changes, and I commonly use it for changing lanes at freeway type speeds. Of course, the bars want to react, so I let them do what they want to do. Easily done with hands completely off the bars.

The arms, I'm a pusher, rather than a puller. Want to go left? Push the right bar [edit: this is wrong, I blame lack of coffee, edit added just so someone doesn't quote this as gospel]. The forward momentum of the bike, combined with the friction from the front tyre contact patch will tip the bike to initiate a turn, and then once the desired angle is achieved, you just let the bike return itself to centre (ie, the very definition of counter-steering). This is good for all types of turning, and especially great at emergency evasion of animals etc (as you let the bike re-centre, it's easy to push the opposite bar to start getting back to the path you were on).

All while I sit on the bike more or less like a sack of spuds. I'll only climb around on the bike if I'm in a serious hustle, or on sketchy ground (I ride over smooth stone quite a bit, and it's often covered with wet mud just for giggles, and in those cases, my body often goes the opposite direction to the turn, per most off-road riding stability at low speeds).

You counter steer to cause the lean to turn.
or
you lean the bike, it will initially counter steer because the wheel was straight and pointing away from the turn.

More so than this, leaning the bike (my ankles example) actually causes the front wheel to turn in the opposite direction of the turn as well (just like it would if you move the bars). The contact patch only turns a little, but it still turns.

Even shifting your weight to initiate a lean creates a force in the opposite direction.

This, is indeed the art.

We all manage to stay (mostly) upright at various speeds, so we're doing it, regardless of how aware we are.

 

[Larry Fine]

The arms, I'm a pusher, rather than a puller. Want to go left? Push the right bar.

Oops! You accidentally said it backwards, but I won't tell anyone.

I've gotten used to either pulling or pushing with either hand, even with my left hand on the throttle.

 

[ad.hom]

You accidentally said it backwards, but I won't tell anyone.

Ha! I'll not go back in & edit, but you're right. It only points to how confusing counter-steering is.

 

[dduelin]

Dave, I respect your posts and have actually learned quite a bit from them over the years but I am afraid I need to take exception to this. I taught the MSF Basic Rider Course for a few years. One of the things that we (they) emphasize is to land on your left foot at a stop (left foot down while right foot is still on the brake). I am sure most of us here, as experienced riders do this instinctively, or even deliberately. As you can imagine, many beginning riders have a balance problem and it's a 50/50 chance if they will stick out their left foot or right foot first, depending on which way the bike was leaning as they come to a stop (or come in like a duck landing on water, with both feet out! LOL). So, to help those students properly land on their left foot, I passed along a little tip that I picked up over the years. I would tell them that, as they come to a stop, just before they put their foot down, right before the bike actually stops, turn the bars to the right (push left). It will make the bike dip to the left and, voila! Left foot down first! Push left, go (or dip) left even works at 1 mph. For the experienced rider class, I would take it a step further. While at a complete stop, try to balance with both feet on the pegs for just a moment. Practice a few times to get close to balancing for at least a second or two. After you master that, try cranking the bars all the way right in a brisk motion. The bike will drop to the left and they will land on their left foot. Very handy when riding those tall ADV bike where one can't get both their feet down together. I have done it myself in real world situations when my approach was not the most stable (bumpy road, ripples in the pavement, etc.). If/when I felt the bike want to dip right when I stop, a quick turn of the bars to the right will correct the situation and I can land on my left foot as I intended.

Try it for yourself. I found it a very handy tool.

Dave,

Thank you for your kind words and we are actually in complete agreement. Being 5' 6" I am almost always on my tippee toes when I am at a stopped or pushing a bike around with my feet and I always use the method you describe to choose which side the bike falls to during the last 1 to zero mph when stopping. This is a stopping maneuver and I was describing turning at slow parking lot speeds, not stopping. If I am going to flat foot with my left foot on any of the bikes I currently own I have to slide a little to the left in the seat to make that reach to the ground and I do this at the same time as giving that little left grip push at 1 mph. If the bike ended up falling to the right at 1 to zero mph and I'm on the left side of the seat I'd be in trouble. When I was in primary flight training my instructor remarked we "fly the plane until it stops". In the same light we ride our motorcycles until they stop and you describe this perfectly.

What I meant in the first sentence of post #22 was when riding slow parking lot speed maneuvers like circles, 8s and U turns we are riding at speeds where the bars are actually turned in the direction of the turn and the bike is leaned in the direction of the turn. In order not to fall over the rider necessarily is counterbalancing the bike by placing his weight on the outside of the bike through the seat and foot peg and the bike is pushed down and away from the body. If the rider wants to tighten the arc of the turn he has to push the bike even further down and away so he has to move further away from it.

 

[Larry Fine]

What I meant in the first sentence of post #22 was when riding slow parking lot speed maneuvers like circles, 8s and U turns we are riding at speeds where the bars are actually turned in the direction of the turn and the bike is leaned in the direction of the turn.

That's true, but you're leaving out how the bike got into that lean to begin with. Even from a stop, or even at only 1 mph, once your feet are off the ground, counter-steering is still part of steering. Even if you're primarily using weight shift to tilt the bike, you're still using counter-steering to control that tilt by steering the contact patch relative to the combined rider-and-bike center-of-gravity (COG).

If you're riding straight, and sitting straight, little effort should be needed to lean or straighten back up. Gentle curves are easily negotiated with conscious body lean, and counter-steering is automatic. If your weight is appreciably to either side of the bike's weight, it requires a conscious steering effort to make the bike follow the desired curve instead of the one the COG would make it follow.

If the rider is more upright than the bike, counter-steering is being used to lean the bike further. If the rider is leaning farther than the bike, it's being used to keep the bike from leaning further. When you see racers hanging off in a turn, they're actually applying steering torque in the direction that is trying to make the bike stand back up, so their weight shift doesn't pull the bike farther over.

In an all-other-things-being-equal scenario, for a given speed and turn radius, the COG must be at a specific angle off of upright. As you shift your weight to either side, the bike must shift its weight to the other side so the combined COG is at that angle. Change speed, or change turn radius, and that COG must settle in at a new angle off of upright. Change any variable, the others must re-adjust.

What intentional counter-steering provides is a way to take manual control of what is otherwise a natural result of manipulating the other variables. There are inputs, and there are results. By changing what is normally a result, we're changing what is normally an input. By steering the front wheel, we can force the turn radius to differ from what it would be if we let the front wheel steer itself.

 

[paulcb]

Clearly, the motorcycles are parked and winter is upon us.

 

[Mophead]

Let's make this simple. Wanna go left, push left handlebar. Wanna go right, push right handlebar.

And the bike goes where you look. If you look off to the side of the road on a curve that's where you go. If you look through the curve that's where you go.

 

[ST Gui]

Let's make this simple. Wanna go left, push left handlebar. Wanna go right, push right handlebar.

And the bike goes where you look. If you look off to the side of the road on a curve that's where you go. If you look through the curve that's where you go.

+1 This is how I roll. Long long ago in a place far far away somebody told me "Push Right go Right. Push Left go Left." Testing that on a long open road I found I'd been doing that all along just not enough long enough.

I also learned that keeping bolt upright through a turn slows and/or widens the arc as dduelin stated. I experienced this twice while riding with first time pillions. Going into a turn at even sedate speeds (how I roll with a pillion and often without) a new passenger will almost always instinctively sit up. Going vertical threw my line off turns I knew I could easily make with a sack of potatoes (50lbs of Purina Dog Chow actually) no problem.

Put some ectoplasm around that sack and now there are issues. So I quickly learned to go quite slowly until I could get to a place were the passenger could get used to leaning with the bike and I. Not riding hard fast I don't need to shift around like a sidehack monkey.

 

[spiderman302]

I like what you have written so far.
To take the discussing further.

We turn by leaning and riding on the sidewalls of the tire, not by steering the bike.
When you are in a lean, you are still applying counter steer. The tires are inline.
If you release the counter pressure and turn the handle bars toward the direction of the turn.
The bike will come out of the lean and go straight.

The rake and trail (forward castor) of front wheel causes a negative feed back that keeps the bike upright and going straight.
If you watch the above video of the bike that got pushed down the hill with no rider.
As the bike hits bumps it starts to fall over but the front tire turns towards the fall witch moves the tires back under the frame.
This keeps the bike upright with no one on it ! Without forward castor the bike would just fall over.

This self balancing force is what you are 'fighting' when you are holding the counter steer.

 

[Larry Fine]

If you release the counter pressure and turn the handle bars toward the direction of the turn.
The bike will come out of the lean and go straight.

The rake and trail (forward castor) of front wheel causes a negative feed back that keeps the bike upright and going straight.

To me, the goal is to get the bike so it requires equally little steering effort to lean over or to come back up.

I'm of the belief that, if you were to adjust the front-end rake to the extremes, you could make a bike that is either so unstable that it will lean over too easily and require excess steering pressure to bring upright, or make one that is so stable that it resists leaning to the point you can barely make it turn.

To wit: When I bought my 1100, it had interstate-worn tires, and was set up for the PO who probably weighs 50 pounds (or more) less than I do. I could barely get it to lean over, and had poor control trying to make minute steering adjustments while having to apply excessive pressure to keep it leaned.

After a couple of weeks, I removed the necessary body parts to get to the adjustment rings on the rear (Progressive) shock, and moved them about 1/2" on the shock body, which probably translates to around 3/4" at the rear axle. The handling improvement was immediate and profound, like a new bike.

The bike was immediately nimble, controllable, and had that the-weight-disappears-at-speed handling that I had read about, and had experienced on my Nighthawk 750 with rebuilt fork and new shock/spring units. When I put on new tires, I almost lowered the rear, but was used to it by the time I got home.

 

[ad.hom]

riding on the sidewalls

I'm curious, when was the last time you checked tyre pressures?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

To extend yet further: My old SV650S took a 160 section rear, there wasn't one immediately available, so I threw a 180 on it. That had the effect that if I got on the gas hard coming out of a bend, the bike was practically impossible to hold in a lean. It just wanted to get up & get gone. I posit that darksiders might experience similar.

 

[Larry Fine]

To extend yet further: My old SV650S took a 160 section rear, there wasn't one immediately available, so I threw a 180 on it. That had the effect that if I got on the gas hard coming out of a bend, the bike was practically impossible to hold in a lean. It just wanted to get up & get gone. I posit that darksiders might experience similar.

I posit that raising the rear suspension would have compensated a bit, but stock sizes deliver the best handling.

 

[sky.high]

Not to mention the changing diameter of the wheels and the necessity to throttle compensate for the deceleration and acceleration effect as the bike enters and exits the bend

 

[spiderman302]

Virtual side walls -- running at 26 psi ?
Yes, the double Darkside does throw mud into the balance equation.
I speak from ancient memories, as my current set up runs on the flat soft edge.