Bleeding Proportioning Valve

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I use a wood or plastic wedge to hold the tupperwear back on the right side after removing the top and front screws to access the PCV without completely removing everything. Works great with a 90 degree fitting on the end of the vacuum pump hose. If you do not bleed this valve, your rear brakes will hang up and burn.
I know this is an older thread but, I have a similar problem on my 2004 GL1800 Lehman trike with rear drum brakes. My rear brakes are real touchy causing either one side or the other to lock up while using the rear brake pedal. As soon as I release the pedal it unlocks enough to ride but, with some shoe drag. I re-adjusted the shoes and road tested without any luck. I've changed out my Master Cylinder, SMC and installed new drums. Now, I just ordered a PCV to give it a try. I've also changed out my entire brake hardware and shoes three times. In regards to bleeding, I installed speed bleeders along with using a pneumatic vacuum bleeder. I went through all the Honda bleed procedures of draining and filling along with the manual pump method. I ran 7oz. of brake fluid through each bleeder during my final manual bleed method. I did prime the MC & SMC by removal of each one's banjo fitting bolt while maintaining the brake bleed procedure.
With that being said and after reading this thread, I'm now thinking that I may just have to go through your SMC bleed procedure at the SMC. My PCV will be quite a job to get to due to being behind my radiator. Glad I came across this thread!! Ray
 
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I know this is an older thread but, I have a similar problem on my 2004 GL1800 Lehman trike with rear drum brakes. My rear brakes are real touchy causing either one side or the other to lock up while using the rear brake pedal. As soon as I release the pedal it unlocks enough to ride but, with some shoe drag. I re-adjusted the shoes and road tested without any luck. I've changed out my Master Cylinder, SMC and installed new drums. Now, I just ordered a PCV to give it a try. I've also changed out my entire brake hardware and shoes three times. In regards to bleeding, I installed speed bleeders along with using a pneumatic vacuum bleeder. I went through all the Honda bleed procedures of draining and filling along with the manual pump method. I ran 7oz. of brake fluid through each bleeder during my final manual bleed method. I did prime the MC & SMC by removal of each one's banjo fitting bolt while maintaining the brake bleed procedure.
With that being said and after reading this thread, I'm now thinking that I may just have to go through your SMC bleed procedure at the SMC. My PCV will be quite a job to get to due to being behind my radiator. Glad I came across this thread!! Ray

Can you show a schematic of the brake system?

On the ST, there are three pistons on the rear caliper, one activated by the pedal and two by the SMC.

How does it work on your trike's drums?

It is not obvious why the lock up occurs only with the pedal.

From your post on the Trike site, looks like you've been fighting that for a while and it started only after changing the shoes?
 
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Can you show a schematic of the brake system?
Thanks for the help.... Unfortunately, Lehman trikes never put out a schematic in regards to their hydraulic system for their Monarch 1 with drum brake shoes. I made a personal bleeding procedure schematic based off of the Honda oem linked system and what I can visionally see (below). Also below, is the Honda oem schematic. I believe the one way flow valve is inline with the PCV but, not positive. I do know that the front disc brakes are the same as oem Honda due to physically cleaning the caliper pistons and inspecting through the movement from the rear brake pedal and front lever. I also did a SMC test to see if the rear wheels would stop while engaging it while free spinning each one. This test passed on both wheels.

On the ST, there are three pistons on the rear caliper, one activated by the pedal and two by the SMC.
How does it work on your trike's drums?
Lehman integrated their hydraulic lines with the Honda oem linked brake system which is (non-ABS) to act the same.

It is not obvious why the lock up occurs only with the pedal.
When using the front brake lever only, the rear brakes are actuated but, not as agressive as the pedal. I did another road test yesterday afternoon of stop and go for about 45 miles on country roads. The trike is now holding a straight line without the brakes grabbing pulling to the left or right. With that being said, the rear brakes became very touchy as before half way through the ride. It wouldn't have taken much to lock them up.

From your post on the Trike site, looks like you've been fighting that for a while and it started only after changing the shoes?
Yes.... It's been quite an ordeal. I thought what the heck, might as well change the shoes and bleed the system while I have the wheels off. Now, the weather here in Michigan is about to change which will delay me even more from getting this solved.
Thanks for reply, I sincerely appreciate it..... Ray
Revised 12-17-2024: Wilwood One Way Flow Valve "was" on the SMC / PCV hydraulic line
Lehman Trike Rear Pedal Brake & Bleed Sequence.jpg

Honda GL1800 OEM Non-ABS.jpg
 

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Andrew Shadow

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If that is an accurate diagram, there seems to be an emergency brake similar to automobile drum brakes. When you adjusted the rear brakes, did you also include adjusting the emergency brake properly? I ask because automobile drum brakes that have an improperly adjusted emergency brake never function properly.
 
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I believe the one way flow valve is inline with the PCV but, not positive.

The schematic shows how the one-way valve prevents pedal fluid to go to the SMC, but there is nothing shown to prevent SMC fluid to go straight to rear reservoir and not activating the drums. You have verified that the SMC did engage the rear, so there must be something else in the circuit to allow that to happen.

Is there another valve in the J-Block or is the J-Block just a manifold?
 
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If that is an accurate diagram, there seems to be an emergency brake similar to automobile drum brakes. When you adjusted the rear brakes, did you also include adjusting the emergency brake properly? I ask because automobile drum brakes that have an improperly adjusted emergency brake never function properly.
Thanks for the help.... Yes, you're correct it does have a parking brake. Earlier on, I actually removed the parking brake strut and lever on both sides to see if that was the problem. Unfortunately, the problem remained. Thanks again. Ray
 
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The schematic shows how the one-way valve prevents pedal fluid to go to the SMC, but there is nothing shown to prevent SMC fluid to go straight to rear reservoir and not activating the drums. You have verified that the SMC did engage the rear, so there must be something else in the circuit to allow that to happen.

Is there another valve in the J-Block or is the J-Block just a manifold?
Thanks...... That schematic is based off of what I can visually see in regards to how it's ran. Unfortunately, some of the lines are buried and can't be seen to be 100% accurate. Lehman didn't do any of us owners any favors on their Monarch 1 rear drum brake versions in regards to installation and information. The one-way flow valve is what Lehman incorporated while maintaining Honda's oem linked non-ABS system which is made by Wilwood. In addition, it's sitting on the center of the swingarm making it impossible to get to with both hands. It will be quite a trick to change that out..... In regards to J-Blocks, there is one on the rear left axle that supposed to be just a J-Block. I haven't disassembled the lines leading/exiting to it due to getting good bleeding results. I'm not going to dismiss taking it apart for inspection if the new PCV doesn't do the trick. I don't see any or heard of any other valves other than what's shown in the hydraulic lines. More than likely as you pointed out, there is something we're not seeing. Thanks again for the help, appreciate it. Ray :thumb:

One-Way Flow Control Valve by Wilwood part number being 260-3501 - https://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderProd?itemno=260-3501

YouTube Video:
One-Way Flow Control Valve

Brake Line Map 2.jpg

Brake Line Map 3.jpg

Wilwood Valve 2.jpg
 
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More than likely there is something we're not seeing.....

Maybe not!

The pictures show the Check Valve on the rear MC line which makes sense (unlike the schematic showing it on the SMC line). It should work that way, without anything else in the circuit.

The junction block looks like just a straight pass-through manifold, distributing pressure to the left and right. Should be no issue there.

You can try swapping the PCV if you have a new one on hand, but it is an unlikely culprit. If it fails, it is more likely to turn into just a pass-through chunk of iron doing absolutely nothing rather than being in the way of anything and causing trouble.


Is the rear locking up with the rear pedal only? Never when applying the front alone?

Does the rear also drag after applying the front only?
 
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Maybe not!

The pictures show the Check Valve on the rear MC line which makes sense (unlike the schematic showing it on the SMC line). It should work that way, without anything else in the circuit.

The junction block looks like just a straight pass-through manifold, distributing pressure to the left and right. Should be no issue there.

You can try swapping the PCV if you have a new one on hand, but it is an unlikely culprit. If it fails, it is more likely to turn into just a pass-through chunk of iron doing absolutely nothing rather than being in the way of anything and causing trouble.


Is the rear locking up with the rear pedal only? Never when applying the front alone?

Does the rear also drag after applying the front only?
Use of the front lever did lock up my left wheel slightly at the beginning of this problem but, only once. Since then, no lock ups from the front lever alone. Everything since, has been coming from the rear brake pedal. It's hard to tell if I was getting some drag after using the front lever only due to mixing both front/rears during testing. The drag really can't be felt when riding, only when moving the bike on foot in neutral. I'm sure heat build up during the test caused it to agress even more. I do have a PCV on the way in which I'll install sometime over the winter. I'll do so just for the process off elimination if nothing else. To my understanding, Lehman left everything inline regarding Honda's oem linked system. Personally, I would rather not have it all linked due to all the BS valves that are involved. I've heard that many other trike manufacturer's seperated the fronts from the rears making it a much simpler system. Thanks again, appreciate it. Ray :thumb:
 
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Yeah..... It's been a major pain in the :censored: Can be followed HERE
Got some answers there.

See that lock up occurs with both front and/or rear brake application. Not good of course but would have been hard to explain if it was not the case, given that the drums cannot tell if the pressure is coming from the front or rear!

And like everybody else said there, I'd suspect the pads before hydraulics, as it is the last thing you replaced...but true professionals have advised you well on that and it doesn't look like there is anything left for you to fiddle with anymore.

Agree also on forgetting about discs for now, especially if you think you might have a hydraulic issue.

In short, nothing I can add that wasn't said and repeated over there already.

Would be great if you could find a way to bleed off before cool down. That would tell you something. Maybe you can access a bleeder without jacking up (backing up on a ramp maybe)? Just to check if any fluid is squirting out?

Another suggestion was to isolate the rear from the linkage to the front, for a test. That would be worth a try,

The "easy" part would be to disconnect the SMC line from the J-Block. Just plug it with a "dummy" plugged J-Block or similar adapter and strap it down there.

The hard part would be to connect the rear MC to the J-Block without the in line check valve . It looks very difficult (impossible?) to remove it from the line the way it is, so maybe it is easier to route a separate line, maybe metal tubing for a temporary set up. If that solves your problem, then time to look again at the SMC. One the other hand....you might like it so much, that you may want to forget about the SMC linkage at all. Looks like there were many conversions delivered without linkage.

Maybe also go by the Honda dealer once more to make double sure you have the latest and greatest recall on the SMC?
 
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The drag really can't be felt when riding, only when moving the bike on foot in neutral. I'm sure heat build up during the test caused it to agress even more.

Not good!

Also,

You did the manual check to verify the SMC was activating the drums, good, but also make sure it is pushed back all the way when you release it (hear it click back against its stop} like here:


With the in-line check valve to the MC, it looks like whatever you pump into the brakes with the pedal will have to return to the reservoir the long way around, through the SMC, which can only happen when the SMC is in good health and fully retracted.

So, for instance, if you are feathering the front brakes (which will engage the SMC) and then apply the rear and release it, the rear brake pressure may not drop until you completely release the front...

Although...from its description, there is a good chance the WIlwood valve is more than just a simple check valve (you'd have to bench test it to verify or call Wilwood, maybe they can even give you a flow vs pressure diagram for it). But it sounds like it may allow a bit of flow back before shutting off.

So, if for some reason there is no bleed back from the rear via the SMC when releasing the brakes (rear AND front), there might be just enough of a blow back through the Wilwood to partly disengage the rear, but they would grab right away when stepping on the pedal again.

But if any of that was actually happening, you'd think you should be able to feel it through how the pedal behaves when you step on it and release it?
 
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Got some answers there.
Lot's of great information for sure.

See that lock up occurs with both front and/or rear brake application. Not good of course but would have been hard to explain if it was not the case, given that the drums cannot tell if the pressure is coming from the front or rear!
The rear brakes has always been more agressive when using the pedal only but, not grabby like they are now. Through the years, I've only locked up the rears a couple times which were intentional. Normally, I use both the front and rear brakes while stopping. The front wheel has never locked up in any situation that I'm aware of, even now.

And like everybody else said there, I'd suspect the pads before hydraulics, as it is the last thing you replaced...but true professionals have advised you well on that and it doesn't look like there is anything left for you to fiddle with anymore.
Yes, them guys over there are nothing short of awesome. I wouldn't have gotten as far as I have without their knowledge and experience. The rear shoes was the first thing that came to my mind as well, especially after seeing the wormed backer plate nubs. In fact, I'm on my third set with a fourth set on the way to replace the ones installed now. I don't want to install this new set until I get a handle on this ongoing probem. Lehman originally used NAPA Ford TS474 brake shoes therefore, I went with the same back in 2015 when I replaced originals. I installed the same new NAPA shoes twice during this ordeal along with a set of Duralast in between those changes. I tried the Duralast due to them having pads for the backer plate nubs. The fourth set I have coming are Raybestos (non-riveted) bonded shoes with pads. I'd rather try the riveted but, I don't want to re-introduce the backer plate gouging.

Agree also on forgetting about discs for now, especially if you think you might have a hydraulic issue.
I would like to get these drum brakes back to working order. If I can't, I'm not sure which direction I'll take other than trying to go to disc's. I'm not a mechanic but, I also realize you can't just throw on disc's and expect them to be the remedy without modification. I reached out to Niehaus Cycle where I purchased and had it built back in 2004 but, those installers are all retired. Simply put, they didn't seem too interested in having me bring it down to them. Lehman did have disc kits that came out a year after mine but, those aren't available anywhere.

In short, nothing I can add that wasn't said and repeated over there already.
That's totally fine.... I sincerely appreciate you for jumping in and showing interest along with taking the time in giving this some thought.

Would be great if you could find a way to bleed off before cool down. That would tell you something. Maybe you can access a bleeder without jacking up (backing up on a ramp maybe)? Just to check if any fluid is squirting out?
I wish I could..... The trike sits too low to reach the bleeder from underneath. As for the wheel well, impossible.

Another suggestion was to isolate the rear from the linkage to the front, for a test. That would be worth a try,

The "easy" part would be to disconnect the SMC line from the J-Block. Just plug it with a "dummy" plugged J-Block or similar adapter and strap it down there.
The hard part would be to connect the rear MC to the J-Block without the in line check valve . It looks very difficult (impossible?) to remove it from the line the way it is, so maybe it is easier to route a separate line, maybe metal tubing for a temporary set up. If that solves your problem, then time to look again at the SMC. One the other hand....you might like it so much, that you may want to forget about the SMC linkage at all. Looks like there were many conversions delivered without linkage.
I believe your onto something here but, with part of the hydraulic system partially hidden, I'm not 100% sure if my Lehman schematic is spot on. I'm sure it would make everything more simplistic with both maintenance and/or replacement parts when needed. I would go this route as a last ditch effort but, I would need a little instruction in doing so. Not having the front linked with the rear is more than fine with me. As I stated earlier, I normally use both front and rear brakes together. Many other conversions were seperated especially after trike companies began switching to disc brakes. As for the SMC, I just installed a new one prior to this test and a new rear MC previously two tests back. Upon installing these MC's I went by Honda's push rod measurements in my shop manual. I knew that was extremely important due to the super tiny pin hole orfices for fluid flow.

SMC:

SMC.jpg

REAR MC:
Rear MC.jpg

Maybe also go by the Honda dealer once more to make double sure you have the latest and greatest recall on the SMC?
Both the SMC & MC are the newest part numbers.

Thank you for your help, I sincerely appreciate it! Ray :thumb:
 
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Not good!

Also,

You did the manual check to verify the SMC was activating the drums, good, but also make sure it is pushed back all the way when you release it (hear it click back against its stop} like here:


I checked that as well upon installation.

With the in-line check valve to the MC, it looks like whatever you pump into the brakes with the pedal will have to return to the reservoir the long way around, through the SMC, which can only happen when the SMC is in good health and fully retracted.

So, for instance, if you are feathering the front brakes (which will engage the SMC) and then apply the rear and release it, the rear brake pressure may not drop until you completely release the front...
Totally makes sense..... As you know, it's not totally releasing. I would think that the SMC and/or the MC is opening/closing properly due to them being measured properly for movement. I'm now thinking that I'll pull the rear MC and check to see if the push rod got slightly bent during installation. I was careful but, it was a little bit of a pain re-installing due to a coolant hose that runs behind it. Both are new along with being tested at time of installation.

Although...from its description, there is a good chance the WIlwood valve is more than just a simple check valve (you'd have to bench test it to verify or call Wilwood, maybe they can even give you a flow vs pressure diagram for it). But it sounds like it may allow a bit of flow back before shutting off.

I conversed with Wilwood over the following emails back in October & November
Read from bottom up in each email;

Wilwood Email 10-27-2023.jpg

Wilwood Email 11-03-2023.jpg

So, if for some reason there is no bleed back from the rear via the SMC when releasing the brakes (rear AND front), there might be just enough of a blow back through the Wilwood to partly disengage the rear, but they would grab right away when stepping on the pedal again.

But if any of that was actually happening, you'd think you should be able to feel it through how the pedal behaves when you step on it and release it?
I would think the same...

Thank You for the video & taking the time in helping me out, I truly appreciate it. Ray :thumb:
 
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I conversed with Wilwood over emails back in October & November

Interesting that Bryan @ Willwood starts by stating....

Bryan @ Wilwood Support said:
I can't even begin to speculate, because I know nothing about these trikes....

But then he proceeds to guess....

Bryan @ Wilwood Support said:
The one-way valve would suggest there is another path for the system to move fluid
And he is right: because of the one-way valve on the rear MC line, return to the rear reservoir has to be via the SMC.


And then...

Bryan @ Wilwood Support said:
....often brakes getting hot and locking up is caused by a master cylinder that cannot fully return to the at rest position...
Another good guess, as it could very well be what is happening with your SMC!

What is confusing is that WIlwood calls this valve a "Self Bleed" check valve, implying that it may be more sophisticated than just a check valve, when it is not. It is just a check valve and nothing more, as Bryan said.

The reason they call it "Self Bleed" check valve, is because it is the valve they recommend to use for their "Self Bleed" loop set up, so the appropriate name should be "Check Valve for Self Bleed Loop" rather than "Self Bleed Check Valve".

Here is what the Wilwood bleed loop looks like:

1702336549515.png

The arrow on the valves shows that the fluid is pumped into the brakes the "regular" way, through the lower valve, but return is through the upper one, fed from the bleeders. That allows for quicker transfer of air or vapors to the reservoir which helps for heavy duty operations at high temp.

In your case, the check valve is needed so you can build up pressure against it when the SMC (front brake) is activated. Otherwise the SMC would pump fluid straight back into the rear reservoir, without pressure build up and without rear brake activation from the front.

And you'd have to remove it for sure if you were to delink your ride, otherwise your rear brakes would turn into a one shot deal!
 
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Interesting that Bryan @ Willwood starts by stating....
But then he proceeds to guess....
I hear ya!
And he is right: because of the one-way valve on the rear MC line, return to the rear reservoir has to be via the SMC.
And then...
Another good guess, as it could very well be what is happening with your SMC!
What is confusing is that WIlwood calls this valve a "Self Bleed" check valve, implying that it may be more sophisticated than just a check valve, when it is not. It is just a check valve and nothing more, as Bryan said.
The reason they call it "Self Bleed" check valve, is because it is the valve they recommend to use for their "Self Bleed" loop set up, so the appropriate name should be "Check Valve for Self Bleed Loop" rather than "Self Bleed Check Valve".
I totally agree with with comments.... The biggest thing I got out of the conversion with him is that it's the correct one that Lehman used due to Wilwood only making one type.

Here is what the Wilwood bleed loop looks like:

1702336549515.png

The arrow on the valves shows that the fluid is pumped into the brakes the "regular" way, through the lower valve, but return is through the upper one, fed from the bleeders. That allows for quicker transfer of air or vapors to the reservoir which helps for heavy duty operations at high temp.

In your case, the check valve is needed so you can build up pressure against it when the SMC (front brake) is activated. Otherwise the SMC would pump fluid straight back into the rear reservoir, without pressure build up and without rear brake activation from the front.

And you'd have to remove it for sure if you were to delink your ride, otherwise your rear brakes would turn into a one shot deal!

Great schematic!! Quite a different setup than mine.... I totally agree with your explanation, makes sense. One thing for sure, I only have one banjo bolt leading off my MC. There may be some other junction or T block hidden but, I don't believe so.
I've pumped at least 2-1/2 gallons of brake fluid through my entire hydraulic system since I started. At least two thirds of that was for draining, filling & bleeding for the new SMC I just installed. All fluid after the first initial bleed of this whole ordeal was just as clear going in as it was going out. I inspected both, the rear MC and SMC in which none of the ports were pluged. I do realize that the SMC is usually the problem with it's tiny pass through pin hole being plugged. I can't tell you how much I was dissapointed in seeing that it wasn't.... Of course, that doesn't dismiss that it wasn't by something in the fluid flow floating around. Plus, using a pneumatic air bleeder may have dissolved it but, not likely. Using the Honda Shop Manual piston rod measurement along with testing it's operation makes it hard to believe that the new SMC and MC is the issue at this point. BUT, just because they're new, doesn't mean they're good therefore, I certainly don't disagree with your thoughts. I've replaced many "of the same" new parts, some more than twice since I started all of this. Why... becoming paranoid due to the new parts not taking care of the issue along with heavy wear on the new pads one after another. I went off of Lehman's oem NAPA wheel cylinders, brake shoes & hardware as I did back in 2015 which were identical. As you know, the Honda PCV and Delay Valve surely plays a part in all of this as well. Maybe, something is partially plugged in those valves. I'm not dismissing the rubber hydraulic lines either just because I have good bleeding flow. I've read that the rubber can be defective/broke down inside along with being directional. Big reason I would love to have my rear wheels somewhat locked up on jack stands while chasing the lines. Not being able to visually see 100% of the hydraulic system doesn't help either.
Be sure to expand above.
I came across the following YT video that explains the PCV and Delay valve on a CBR.

PCV and Delay valve on a CBR

Thank You Big Time for helping me out in trying to chase this Huge problem I'm faced with. I sincerely appreciate your time, thoughts and pic's!! :thumb:
 
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I came across the following YT video that explains the PCV and Delay valve on a CBR.
PCV and Delay valve on a CBR

Yeah....but not representative of what you have on the GL (No SMC shown on this vid and the PCV on the GL does more).

However, that brings up a point.

You said applying the front is not causing lock up.....and there may be a simple explanation for that!

Front SMC pressure goes via the PCV which is going to limit the pressure to the rear to a preset maximum, and then even bleed it down as more front brake is applied.

None of that happens when you apply the rear, there is no pressure limiter on the pedal MC, hence you can apply higher pressure with your foot than you can from the front...and lock up!

On the GL, when you press the pedal, you engage the middle of the three pistons in the rear caliper, and then gentle pressure (also limited by the PCV) on the two outers via the SMC. So, the pedal directly controls only one piston out of three, one third of the braking power.

The way the Trike is plumbed is as if the GL was applying full pedal pressure directly on all three pistons, awesome, unlimited rear braking power....but also easier to lock up.

But the Trike is also plumbed like if the SMC on the GL were delivering pressure on all three rear caliper pistons as well, so you do get more breaking power on the rear than if you were using front only on the GL.

So the simplest and obvious solution is....don't use the pedal! Drive the Trike just like you would a car, you are getting plenty of rear braking power using the front only, and also safely limited via the PCV to prevent lock up. Just use the pedal for convenience only, at a stop for instance, when you want to free your right hand.

However....

This may be difficult if you have years or riding motorcycles and rear braking is instinctive.

And....

This would deprive you of engaging the front middle pistons with the pedal when you need full front braking power.

No easy solution for that, but what could be done:

1) Reroute the line from the rear MC. Instead of tying it in at the J-Block, Tee it in upstream of the PCV, so you'll get the same pressure limiting function for the rear pedal as you get now when engaging the front.

2) Or install a separate proportioning valve in the rear line from the MC to J-Block. This would allow the pedal to deliver lower pressure to the rear than it does to the front. This one from Wilwood is adjustable, so you can play with it until you find the optimal setting:


Available from Amazon as well.

And your friend Bryan at Wilwood even said he sees no reason why it shouldn't work for your application.

Or....

3) Go for the disks. Easier to modulate when close to lock-up. And it may be easier than tinkering with the plumbing that seems difficult to access.

Makes you wonder why there are not more of these Monarch 1s that are locking up? Maybe you have a heavier foot? Change the pedal angle so you have less leverage?

Or maybe it explains why so many have de-linked.

PS: Missed the simplest option!

Just plug the port from the rear MC to the drums (= disconnect the rear drum line). The SMC would still give you all the (controlled) braking power you need on the rear when engaging the front and you would still be able to engage the front middle pistons with the pedal in case of emergency.

On top of that, you would still be able to operate the rear through the pedal only if you want gentle action, via the SMC. And, surprisingly, the pedal is also pressuring up the rear through the SMC when not moving, so you'd be covered when stopped as well.
 
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Yeah....but not representative of what you have on the GL (No SMC shown on this vid and the PCV on the GL does more).
For sure...

However, that brings up a point.
You said applying the front is not causing lock up.....and there may be a simple explanation for that!
It's not but, I'm not 100% positive if it's causing slight drag or not since I can't feel it.

Front SMC pressure goes via the PCV which is going to limit the pressure to the rear to a preset maximum, and then even bleed it down as more front brake is applied.

None of that happens when you apply the rear, there is no pressure limiter on the pedal MC, hence you can apply higher pressure with your foot than you can from the front...and lock up!

On the GL, when you press the pedal, you engage the middle of the three pistons in the rear caliper, and then gentle pressure (also limited by the PCV) on the two outers via the SMC. So, the pedal directly controls only one piston out of three, one third of the braking power.
The way the Trike is plumbed is as if the GL was applying full pedal pressure directly on all three pistons, awesome, unlimited rear braking power....but also easier to lock up.
But the Trike is also plumbed like if the SMC on the GL were delivering pressure on all three rear caliper pistons as well, so you do get more breaking power on the rear than if you were using front only on the GL.
Exactly....

So the simplest and obvious solution is....don't use the pedal! Drive the Trike just like you would a car, you are getting plenty of rear braking power using the front only, and also safely limited via the PCV to prevent lock up. Just use the pedal for convenience only, at a stop for instance, when you want to free your right hand.
Using just the front would probably do the trick but, if in a situation I know I'll hit the pedal which would cause drag for a while causing the wear on the shoes. With that being said, the drag may not be as bad due to not using pedal braking all the time. Plus, the drums shouldn't be as hot....

However....

This may be difficult if you have years or riding motorcycles and rear braking is instinctive.
Riding this way would be a challenge for sure after riding for 50 years..... LOL

And....

This would deprive you of engaging the front middle pistons with the pedal when you need full front braking power.
Exactly...

No easy solution for that, but what could be done:

1) Reroute the line from the rear MC. Instead of tying it in at the J-Block, Tee it in upstream of the PCV, so you'll get the same pressure limiting function for the rear pedal as you get now when engaging the front.
This sounds feasable but, as you mentioned in #3 difficulty with the plumbing.

2) Or install a separate proportioning valve in the rear line from the MC to J-Block. This would allow the pedal to deliver lower pressure to the rear than it does to the front. This one from Wilwood is adjustable, so you can play with it until you find the optimal setting:


Available from Amazon as well.

And your friend Bryan at Wilwood even said he sees no reason why it shouldn't work for your application.
Now this in itself, appears to be quite a straight forward install seperating the front and rear. Not sure how all the other components would interact with one another and/or what to remove other than the PCV from the SMC line. I can see that the existing Wilwood valve would be totally eliminated. Only other aspect of the adjustable proportional valve is that it's aimed for use of disc brakes. Not sure if that would make a difference due to mechanical pressure of disc brakes vs drum brake shoes. I would have to say that it would require more hydraulic pressure for the drum brake shoes due to all the hardware. BUT if pressure is a problem, maybe the rear could be split using two of those adjustable valves. Interesting to say the least....

Or....

3) Go for the disks. Easier to modulate when close to lock-up. And it may be easier than tinkering with the plumbing that seems difficult to access.
This would be my first pick from the above.... Mainly because Lehman along with other trike companies went this route. Rear disc brake kits were customized and readily available after the drum to disc transition took place a year after I had mine built. At that time and through the years, I didn't see any reason to switch. I've done a pretty heavy search in trying to find availability and came up empty. Dealers/Shops like M&J Trikes of WV that converted these drum brakes to disc are now gone. That would have been the best case to have this swap done easily. Finding a kit along with full instruction of installation of what was used and eliminated for these first generation non-ABS Goldwings would also be nice but.....:rofl1:

Makes you wonder why there are not more of these Monarch 1s that are locking up? Maybe you have a heavier foot? Change the pedal angle so you have less leverage?
I've had this trike for 19 years and never had a brake issue until I bled and changed the shoes. Best explanation I have for this is that when I bled the lines, I stirred something up plugging a port or hose somewhere. There are so many possibilities of what it could be for example; Any of all the parts replaced so far or a partially inner collapsed/deteriorated rubber hydraulic line. In all cases, it's hard to believe any of these things simply due to the brake working flawlessly before I decided to change the shoes.

Or maybe it explains why so many have de-linked.
I really haven't come across anyone else experiencing brake drum issues like I'm having other than having plugged valve ports.

PS: Missed the simplest option!
Just plug the port from the rear MC to the drums (= disconnect the rear drum line). The SMC would still give you all the (controlled) braking power you need on the rear when engaging the front and you would still be able to engage the front middle pistons with the pedal in case of emergency.
On top of that, you would still be able to operate the rear through the pedal only if you want gentle action, via the SMC. And, surprisingly, the pedal is also pressuring up the rear through the SMC when not moving, so you'd be covered when stopped as well.
Could do that but knowing this trike and all my riding experience, I would need that extra full rear brake stopping power in case of some idiot jumping in front of me.
Expand above.
As you know, there isn't much more I can change out other than the valves I haven't and hydraulic lines. I always take pictures and/or video before I remove any parts and am very careful about following my Honda SM, re-installing correct parts and torquing as I go along. Heck... I still have my pic's from my first shoe/hardware replacement from 2015. Thank you for all of these great possible solutions & ideas!! #3 followed by #2 would be my top choices in all of the scenarios that I may have to go with. You've certainly enlightened me leading me away from a dead end. I sincerely appreciate all your time in helping me out through this huge stressfull situation i'm in. Thank you!! Ray
:thumb:
 
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.... make sure the SMC is pushed back all the way when you release it (hear it click back against its stop.)
I checked that upon installation.
Quick note on that: Check it before and after the ride. If residual air gets trapped in this area, the SMC may not fully spring back after you manually compress it and cause problems.

But it looks like Honda has done a better job on the GL than on the ST to eliminate the trap.


3) Go for the disks. Easier to modulate when close to lock-up. And it may be easier than tinkering with the plumbing that seems difficult to access.

This would be my first pick from the above.... Mainly because Lehman along with other trike companies went this route. Rear disc brake kits were customized and readily available after the drum to disc transition took place a year after I had mine built. At that time and through the years, I didn't see any reason to switch. I've done a pretty heavy search in trying to find availability and came up empty. Dealers/Shops like M&J Trikes of WV that converted these drum brakes to disc are now gone. That would have been the best case to have this swap done easily. Finding a kit along with full instruction of installation of what was used and eliminated for these first generation non-ABS Goldwings would also be nice but .....
Well....from this info , it sounds like there may not be many Monarch 1s left on the road with Drums: You could be the last one standing!

And not surprisingly. This is not a very good design on the hydraulic side. The pedal on the GL was governing only 1/3 of the rear braking power (one out of three pistons), and now on the Trike it has full power on drums that are harder to modulate than disks. Doesn't make much sense.

You could say they could have installed a smaller diameter MC to compensate, but you don't want to do that because it also operates 1/3 of the front braking power and you do not want to lose any of that for emergencies.

I'll hit the pedal which would cause drag for a while causing the wear on the shoes. With that being said, the drag may not be as bad due to not using pedal braking all the time. Plus, the drums shouldn't be as hot....
You may want to update your hydraulic schematic to show the Wilwood on the correct line, the pedal to drum line, as shown on the pics you posted. It will help to follow the not so simple SMC braking process.

Because of the WIlwood check valve in the pedal brake line, the brake fluid to the rear has to go back to the rear reservoir le long way around, via the SMC, the WIlwood prevents fluid to go back to the rear reservoir through the pedal line , regardless if the drums are activated by the SMC OR the Pedal. It makes no difference to the drums where the pressure is coming from, all they see is a pressure increase at the J-Block. They will react the exact same way if the pressure comes from the SMC or from the Pedal. They have no more reason to drag when you apply the rear than when you apply the front (unless of course the pedal is not fully released, it sometimes happens inadvertently).

So there is no reason to suspect the pedal is responsible for the drums dragging. For locking them up, for sure, as the pedal delivers too much pressure for the drums and doesn't have a pressure limiter, like the PCV in the SMC line.

And every time you use the front, the rear is automatically applied, want it or not, the SMC will do it for you. And not only that, the SMC will apply more braking power you had on the GL, as the SMC was only affecting 2/3 of the rear brakes (2 pistons out of 3) vs full power on the Trike. So your rear Trike brakes see more intense use than they would on the GL.

There is one "relatively easy" test you could run to see how well pedal pressure bleeds back to the rear reservoir via the SMC. with the Trike immobilized.

You could disconnect the line at the rear MC that goes to the front and plug the corresponding port on the MC.

Then, when you press the pedal, you should see fluid coming out of the disconnected line .....if it all works correctly.

The pedal should also stay down as the Wilwood should prevent fluid coming back to it.


Another thing to check, is that your front left caliper releases completely, not causing excessive drag and unsolicited SMC activation.
 
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