Bleeding Proportioning Valve

[Ray&Paula]

Quick note on that: Check it before and after the ride. If residual air gets trapped in this area, the SMC may not fully spring back after you manually compress it and cause problems.
But it looks like Honda has done a better job on the GL than on the ST to eliminate the trap.
I went ahead and checked the pivot bracket along with pivot action once again on the SMC. As shown in the video below, the SMC is pivoting but, not by much. I'm sure that's the most that it would with the wheel off the ground and by hand under hydraulic pressure. I checked the 69mm oem measurement again of the SMC push rod length which was spot on. The outer copper collar flange on the pivot arm for the SMC is a little rough on one side but, it's been that way for years from one of my first tire changes. It has never affected the inner steel collar for free piston arm rotation. I would have changed this flanged collar but, its not replaceable that I can see of. One thing I find odd, the SMC piston rod is on an angle when mounted to the caliper bracket (pic below). With the caliper bracket removed, it hangs straight. All mounting points for the caliper bracket and SMC are in great shape with no slop/wear. I've never noticed this before but, I've never taken a good look until now. Obviously, it correct but, I'd rather see it straight.
YT SMC Video:

Well....from this info , it sounds like there may not be many Monarch 1s left on the road with Drums: You could be the last one standing!
And not surprisingly. This is not a very good design on the hydraulic side. The pedal on the GL was governing only 1/3 of the rear braking power (one out of three pistons), and now on the Trike it has full power on drums that are harder to modulate than disks. Doesn't make much sense.
You could say they could have installed a smaller diameter MC to compensate, but you don't want to do that because it also operates 1/3 of the front braking power and you do not want to lose any of that for emergencies.
It was a small period that Lehman used drum brakes before they switched. With that being said, I've never had any issues along with always having great braking no matter what weather or situation I was in. Back then a lot of people preferred drum brakes over disc mainly due to wet weather.

You may want to update your hydraulic schematic to show the Wilwood on the correct line, the pedal to drum line, as shown on the pics you posted. It will help to follow the not so simple SMC braking process.
I will... That I wasn't sure about until now, it makes total sense thanks to your explanation below. I thought the Wilwood one-way valve was an addition coming from the PCV to help aid the functionality of the rear drum brakes. Sooo oblivious.....

Because of the WIlwood check valve in the pedal brake line, the brake fluid to the rear has to go back to the rear reservoir le long way around, via the SMC, the WIlwood prevents fluid to go back to the rear reservoir through the pedal line , regardless if the drums are activated by the SMC OR the Pedal. It makes no difference to the drums where the pressure is coming from, all they see is a pressure increase at the J-Block. They will react the exact same way if the pressure comes from the SMC or from the Pedal. They have no more reason to drag when you apply the rear than when you apply the front (unless of course the pedal is not fully released, it sometimes happens inadvertently).
So there is no reason to suspect the pedal is responsible for the drums dragging. For locking them up, for sure, as the pedal delivers too much pressure for the drums and doesn't have a pressure limiter, like the PCV in the SMC line.
My thought now is even more so in leaning towards the PCV for a possible solution. Once I receive the PCV and get some time, I'll have to remove a lot of plastic, drain the entire hydraulic and cooling system for the install (winter project). This time with it drained, I'm going to remove the J-block and check for obstruction as well. As far as I know, it's only a J-block. With that being said, I'm going to have to order some banjo bolt crush washers. I would chase the hydraulic lines first starting at the rear wheel cylinder followed by the J-block, PCV.... if I could lock them up while mobile. So far I haven't been able to do that.

And every time you use the front, the rear is automatically applied, want it or not, the SMC will do it for you. And not only that, the SMC will apply more braking power you had on the GL, as the SMC was only affecting 2/3 of the rear brakes (2 pistons out of 3) vs full power on the Trike. So your rear Trike brakes see more intense use than they would on the GL.
For sure.... Always had great stopping power when needed.

There is one "relatively easy" test you could run to see how well pedal pressure bleeds back to the rear reservoir via the SMC. with the Trike immobilized.
You could disconnect the line at the rear MC that goes to the front and plug the corresponding port on the MC.
I'm not sure where the T is from the MC due to it being buried, not seeing it visually. As in the diagram, one line T's off to the Delay Valve with the other line leading to the Wilwood valve then J-block. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you would want me to disconnect the line leading to the Delay valve at the T and then plug it off where I disconected it. The fluid would then flow out of the delay valve line.
Then, when you press the pedal, you should see fluid coming out of the disconnected line .....if it all works correctly.
The pedal should also stay down as the Wilwood should prevent fluid coming back to it.

Another thing to check, is that your front left caliper releases completely, not causing excessive drag and unsolicited SMC activation.
I did clean up the calipers and pistons in which they are/were working properly with the front end jacked up. Of course this test was done with the trike being mobilized along with observing visually while applying the front lever and rear pedal with and without the pads in place. I didn't take apart the calipers due to all realeasing properly....

Expand above.
Without doubt, you have given me a much clearer picture, especially with pointing out the proper placement of the Wilwood valve. It's all making more sense to me which more than helps as I move forward. I'll definitely revise/correct my diagrams and post them back & please, feel free to straighten me out if you see me slipping into oblivia.. LOL!
I can't Thank You enough for taking the time in helping me out in explaining how this hydraulic system works along with some tests to perform. I sincerely appreciate it!! Thank You!! Ray

 

[Ray&Paula]

**NEW REVISION from post #23 - Lehman Trike Rear Pedal Brake & Bleed Sequence:
Huge Thank You goes out to MidLife for correction of the Wilwood One Way Flow Valve!!

 

[MidLife]

**NEW REVISION from post #23 - Lehman Trike Rear Pedal Brake & Bleed Sequence:
Huge Thank You goes out to MidLife for correction of the Wilwood One Way Flow Valve!!

This now matches the pictures you posted earlier. The Wilwood needs to be as shown so pressure coming from the SMC is not wasted straight back to the rear reservoir through the rear brake line without activating the drums.

There is a difference between the ST set up and the GL: the schematic shows that the front lever energizes only one piston on the left side (SMC side), vs two on the ST. On the GL, the pedal activates the two outers on the left front, therefore the heavier GL has more power distributed back to the rear than on our STs when engaging the pedal.

On the vid below for the ST1300, you can see how the SMC engages further when the front is applied (the front activates two pistons on the ST).
And less engagement when only the rear is applied, because only one piston is activated on the left front caliper (less friction against the disc).

On your GL set up, it will be reversed, more engagement when the rear is applied as two pistons are activated.

And for both the GL and ST, maximum engagement when both the front and rear are activated, with three pistons activated.

It also means that on the GL, the front lever governs only 1/2 of the available front braking power (vs 2/3 on the ST), and you have to engage the pedal to access the other half. So I can see a GL rider being more intense on the pedal than I might be with the ST.

With so much braking power going to the rear from the SMC on the GL, you might still want to check how it behaves with the rear line disconnected (maybe you can find a way to connect the SMC line only to the J-Block and plug the rear brake line when you dig in for your PCV replacement). Then if you feel you are losing too much bite doing that, you may try installing the Wilwood proportioning valve to dial some of the pedal pressure back in.

But then....with the rear line not connected...you may also find out that you still get excessive wear and heat on the drums....which would definitely point out to the problem coming from something else than direct pedal activity on the rear.

 

[Ray&Paula]

This now matches the pictures you posted earlier. The Wilwood needs to be as shown so pressure coming from the SMC is not wasted straight back to the rear reservoir through the rear brake line without activating the drums.
Totally makes sense.
There is a difference between the ST set up and the GL: the schematic shows that the front lever energizes only one piston on the left side (SMC side), vs two on the ST. On the GL, the pedal activates the two outers on the left front, therefore the heavier GL has more power distributed back to the rear than on our STs when engaging the pedal.

On the vid below for the ST1300, you can see how the SMC engages further when the front is applied (the front activates two pistons on the ST).
And less engagement when only the rear is applied, because only one piston is activated on the left front caliper (less friction against the disc).
Great video! Nice to see the SMC in action... Your explanation along with the video nails it right on the head! Definitely more travel on the front lever on the STs as you stated as it should be. It also appears that the piston rod isn't completely straight with the body of the SMC like mine. Obviously, piston/body length compensates for that due to the pivoting action.

On your GL set up, it will be reversed, more engagement when the rear is applied as two pistons are activated.
And for both the GL and ST, maximum engagement when both the front and rear are activated, with three pistons activated.
Gives us great braking especially when needed.

It also means that on the GL, the front lever governs only 1/2 of the available front braking power (vs 2/3 on the ST), and you have to engage the pedal to access the other half. So I can see a GL rider being more intense on the pedal than I might be with the ST.
I've been happy with the linked system which has never let me down in any given situation. With that being said along with the issues I'm having, I'm open to delinking if needed.

With so much braking power going to the rear from the SMC on the GL, you might still want to check how it behaves with the rear line disconnected (maybe you can find a way to connect the SMC line only to the J-Block and plug the rear brake line when you dig in for your PCV replacement). Then if you feel you are losing too much bite doing that, you may try installing the Wilwood proportioning valve to dial some of the pedal pressure back in.
Sounds like it would be a good test. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.... It would require a seperate line from the SMC upper fork J-block > Disconnect the J-block to PCV line > Run a line from J-block to the rear J-block replacing the PCV line. Then, if needed add the Wilwood with dial-in. Sounds simple enough with the exception of running the line without removing all the plastic, etc. If I was able to run a line, rubber would be the best for the test due to flexibility. If its not feasable, I'll go through the pain of replacing the PCV keeping my fingers crossed for the fix. During the install, I'll definitely look at the hydraulic line for bypassing the PCV. If it comes to that, maybe a simple coupling could be used leaving the existing hard line in place.

But then....with the rear line not connected...you may also find out that you still get excessive wear and heat on the drums....which would definitely point out to the problem coming from something else than direct pedal activity on the rear.
Yeah.... Unfortunately there's always an exception.....

Expand above.
You have definitely given me some great ideas for modification along with great explanation of how to do so! I can't begin to to tell you how much I appreciate all your help and time!! Thank You!!! Ray

 

[MidLife]

Testing would require a separate line from the SMC upper fork J-block ?

Simpler.

The GL hydraulics are delivering plenty of SMC pressure to the rear when you smash the pedal (By engaging two pistons on the Left Front Caliper), so the test would be to check if you can live with just this SMC pressure to the rear, without using the additional line coming directly from the pedal, which may be the cause of the lock ups. I wouldn't tinker with anything around the SMC, it is a well thought out and balanced system (but not exactly a user-friendly implementation, I can imagine the owners of Wings 2018 and up have it easier!).

So the test would be to "condemn" the direct line from the pedal to the drums (green below). And then, if you feel that you lost some peak performance, maybe install a Wilwood Proportioning in this green segment, start it at its maximum restriction setting and throttle it up (if needed) until performance is back to your liking.

However....this is easier said then done given the poor access you mentioned!






Good you made this schematic. It shows that if you want to test the ride without the direct (green) brake line, you have to disconnect it at the T (red arrow). Do NOT disconnect and plug at the J-Block: you would end up with a trapped volume of pressurized fluid between the Wilwood and the plug that could go to higher pressure with heat and damage the line and/or Wilwood.

Unfortunately, you'd have to disconnect at this T junction (red arrow) and plug the T port (no need to plug the line itself as the WIlwood prevents backflow through it). And maybe there are access issues there as well on the Trike.....

But if you manage to do that and still drag the drums, it could point more clearly to a SMC related issue (or line restriction along the way, like older partially pinched/collapsed line?)...if not the drums themselves.

Also, I do not remember from your Trike thread if you were ever able to clarify where the Residual Valve was located? None shown on the schematic.

Thank You!!!

Nothing fixed yet, only speculations so far! But instructive as I didn't know about the brake linking set up on the GL!

 

[jfheath]

Just looking through this.

@MidLife mentioned something significant, and I haven't seen anyone pick up on it. Since I was about to mention the same point I'll add my backing to it.

The only way that the rear brakes can release pressure is (in sequence)

1. back through the proportional control valve (easy)
2. through the outlet port of the SMC **
3. Through the delay valve (easy)
4. Through the outlet port of the rear master cylinder. **

Although it is not impossible for the PCV and the delay valve to be blocked, it is not as likely as items 2 and 4.

For the SMC port to release pressure two things have to happen. The SMC piston has to have returned completely to its resting position and the primary seal must have cleared the tiny compensation port. The Compensation port has to be clear of crud / crystalised brake fluid. Since it is only about 0.009 inches (a top E guitar string will pass through it, but not a B string), if fluid hasn't been changed regularly then this is entirely possible. In the ST1300 SMC, there is a nylon filter cartridge built into the inlet port, This also has a compensation port which has to be clear. I have no way of knowing whether your SMC has such a device.

For the Rear master cylinder to be able to release pressure to the rear reservoir, the same two things have ti happen. ie the master cylinder is able to return properly so that the primary seal clears the compensation port AND the compensation port has to be clear. In addition, the rear reservoir has to have space to accept the returning fluid. It isn't much, but if there's no space then it cannot possibly return.

You will be able to tell whether the rear master cylinder is clear. - Push in the front right centre piston. It should move easily.

The only way that I can see of testing the SMC is to do the equivalent of pushing in the caliper pistons on the rear wheels - but I don't know that arrangement and don't know how easy that would be. The only other thing it to remove the SMC completely and take out the piston and check the bore and the compensation port.

Note that fluid will easily pass through the SMC by pressing the brake pedal - the fluid flows past the primary seal from the rear - that is how they are designed to work - the seal yileds with pressure from behind - like the sealing washer in a bicycle pump. The returning fluid must got through the compensation port. The compensation port lies immediately in front of the primary seal - so it is closed off the instant the piston moves. If the piston doesn't (cannot) return to its proper position, the compensation port remains sealed. One reason for it not being able to return is corrosion in the cylinder bore. Possibly as a reult of a badly sealing rubber boot, possibly due to 'wet' brake fluid from infrequent fluid changes.

 

[Ray&Paula]

Simpler.

The GL hydraulics are delivering plenty of SMC pressure to the rear when you smash the pedal (By engaging two pistons on the Left Front Caliper), so the test would be to check if you can live with just this SMC pressure to the rear, without using the additional line coming directly from the pedal, which may be the cause of the lock ups. I wouldn't tinker with anything around the SMC, it is a well thought out and balanced system (but not exactly a user-friendly implementation, I can imagine the owners of Wings 2018 and up have it easier!).

So the test would be to "condemn" the direct line from the pedal to the drums (green below). And then, if you feel that you lost some peak performance, maybe install a Wilwood Proportioning in this green segment, start it at its maximum restriction setting and throttle it up (if needed) until performance is back to your liking.

However....this is easier said then done given the poor access you mentioned!
Sounds like another great option!! Yes, there are buried lines in part.... which makes it difficult with stripping the bike down.






Good you made this schematic. It shows that if you want to test the ride without the direct (green) brake line, you have to disconnect it at the T (red arrow). Do NOT disconnect and plug at the J-Block: you would end up with a trapped volume of pressurized fluid between the Wilwood and the plug that could go to higher pressure with heat and damage the line and/or Wilwood.
Wouldn't want that.....

Unfortunately, you'd have to disconnect at this T junction (red arrow) and plug the T port (no need to plug the line itself as the WIlwood prevents backflow through it). And maybe there are access issues there as well on the Trike.....
That T is buried somewhere in that area. As for the existing Wilwood valve, I tried many ways to see if I can get both hands on it for removal if needed.... No can do, haven't found a way yet. I've tried from underneath and the sides. Installer placed it right in the mid-section while building the trike... no foresight to say the least. There's plenty of room that it could have been placed near the frame on either side. It was installed therefore, there must be a way to get to it but, I haven't found it yet.
,
But if you manage to do that and still drag the drums, it could point more clearly to a SMC related issue (or line restriction along the way, like older partially pinched/collapsed line?)...if not the drums themselves.
I thought that it may have been a drum issue at one point. Had the oem existing drums turned which didn't change anything. Then prior to this last test, I installed a brand new set. I also had the backer plates straightened.

Also, I do not remember from your Trike thread if you were ever able to clarify where the Residual Valve was located? None shown on the schematic.
I have no idea if there is a residual valve installed??? If there is, it's buried as well. I do know that Lehman installed one on the disc version Monarch ll trikes due to seeing it in there install manual. It would have been nice Lehman shared the install manual for the my Monarch l. I've researched and researched for one but, no luck. As I stated before, I'm guessing the layout on the schematic. After your explanation of the brake system along with how it works, I would now have to believe that it's correct.

Nothing fixed yet, only speculations so far! But instructive as I didn't know about the brake linking set up on the GL!
I hear ya.... One thing for sure, you certainly have enlightened me on this system along with some great possibilities for correction. Many of the things I replaced surely didn't need it simply due to have a perfect operational brake system until I decided to install a set of shoes and bleed.

Expand above:
Thanks for taking the time once again in brainstorming this situation, I sincerely appreciate it!! Ray

 

[Ray&Paula]

Just looking through this.

@MidLife mentioned something significant, and I haven't seen anyone pick up on it. Since I was about to mention the same point I'll add my backing to it.
Thanks John....

The only way that the rear brakes can release pressure is (in sequence)

1. back through the proportional control valve (easy)
2. through the outlet port of the SMC **
3. Through the delay valve (easy)
4. Through the outlet port of the rear master cylinder. **

Although it is not impossible for the PCV and the delay valve to be blocked, it is not as likely as items 2 and 4.
I totally agree....

For the SMC port to release pressure two things have to happen. The SMC piston has to have returned completely to its resting position and the primary seal must have cleared the tiny compensation port. The Compensation port has to be clear of crud / crystalised brake fluid. Since it is only about 0.009 inches (a top E guitar string will pass through it, but not a B string), if fluid hasn't been changed regularly then this is entirely possible. In the ST1300 SMC, there is a nylon filter cartridge built into the inlet port, This also has a compensation port which has to be clear. I have no way of knowing whether your SMC has such a device.
Most of everything I've seen throughout forums is aimed at the SMC either havindg a plugged port or being mis-measured for proper SMC piston movement for that tiny port as your mentioning. There is a white nylon filter in my SMC, saw it when I took it apart. I've seen others having a green screen while searching SMC problems. I was highly disappointed when I found my tiny port unplugged. That's the usual problem that I have came across throughout many forums. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't due to something floating around in the fluid which passed. Longest I've gone without bleeding is three seasons.... "I know, it's suppose to be every two years therefore, I'm guilty." With that being said, my hydraulic fluid has been close to being as clear coming out as it was going in. I've always been careful about removing/cleaning both resovoirs as well during this maintenance.

For the Rear master cylinder to be able to release pressure to the rear reservoir, the same two things have ti happen. ie the master cylinder is able to return properly so that the primary seal clears the compensation port AND the compensation port has to be clear. In addition, the rear reservoir has to have space to accept the returning fluid. It isn't much, but if there's no space then it cannot possibly return.
Totally agree.... Very important as you stated.... I have always keept my rear MC resovoir at half way. as for my lever, just a hair below the top of its sight glass as my clutch resovoir.

You will be able to tell whether the rear master cylinder is clear. - Push in the front right centre piston. It should move easily.
Checked for proper smooth movement along with cleaning my front calipers and pistons while changing out the old SMC. All is working as they should with both the front lever and rear pedal. I didn't see or feel any scoring on the pistons.

The only way that I can see of testing the SMC is to do the equivalent of pushing in the caliper pistons on the rear wheels - but I don't know that arrangement and don't know how easy that would be. The only other thing it to remove the SMC completely and take out the piston and check the bore and the compensation port.
I didn't tear the calipers completely down.

Note that fluid will easily pass through the SMC by pressing the brake pedal - the fluid flows past the primary seal from the rear - that is how they are designed to work - the seal yileds with pressure from behind - like the sealing washer in a bicycle pump. The returning fluid must got through the compensation port. The compensation port lies immediately in front of the primary seal - so it is closed off the instant the piston moves. If the piston doesn't (cannot) return to its proper position, the compensation port remains sealed. One reason for it not being able to return is corrosion in the cylinder bore. Possibly as a reult of a badly sealing rubber boot, possibly due to 'wet' brake fluid from infrequent fluid changes.
I did a free hand rear tire check on both rear wheels in which the SMC did stop them while I was engaging it. With that being said, i'm not so sure that test is inclusive to meaning all is good including the PCV.

Expand above
Thanks again John, appreciate you taking the time in pointing this all out leading to the possibilities. Ray

 

[MidLife]

Lehman installed a residual valve on the disc version Monarch ll.

Head-scratcher!

Residual valve on the discs when it is not really needed (although it doesn't hurt) but none on the drums that need to have one!

If you can find out where it is on the II from the install manual, location should be same for the Monarch I, but you probably already checked that I suppose (My guess would be somewhere between SMC and PCV).

Without a Residual Valve, I'd be hesitant trying to "condemn" the line to rear from the pedal (green) as looked at before as a possible experiment. Reason is that a common issue with Drums without a Residual is often to require pumping the brakes for Drum activation, so it could be that the reason the system "works" now without a Residual Valve is that it is in a way automatically "double pumped", being fed by the SMC and Pedal at the same time. So maybe prudent not to take a chance with that.

It would be "safer" to try disconnecting + plugging the SMC line at the J-Block and operate the rear with the pedal only (which you can pump if needed...).....but not possible if you cannot remove the Wilwood!

Another point is that it looks like pistons in MC for Drums are typically smaller than for Discs (apparently because Drums tend to "self energize" once engaged and require less pressure to activate). So the current pistons which are sized for Discs may be oversized for the Drums.

Which could explain overheating. Maybe your old ones got (luckily) glazed from overheating. causing them to be less grabby. Your new ones are just too performant.....

One mod would be to T the two lines (from SMC and Pedal) together before the J-Block and then install Residual + Proportioning Valve in the run from this T to the J-Block.....if there was any room for that.

 

[Ray&Paula]

Head-scratcher!
I hear hear ya....
Residual valve on the discs when it is not really needed (although it doesn't hurt) but none on the drums that need to have one!

If you can find out where it is on the II from the install manual, location should be same for the Monarch I, but you probably already checked that I suppose (My guess would be somewhere between SMC and PCV).
I actually have the install manual for the Monarch ll. You can download it HERE That's where I downloaded it without any problems. To bad Lehman didn't create one for the Monarch l. I have looked for that valve but, could never find it. I'm not saying that I don't have one, it just may be buried somewhere. You'll find the residual valve on page 24. On page 14 you'll find both the Honda oem and Lehman modification schematic. The residual valve isn't even showed plus, the PCV isn't shown. The manual is somewhat loosely put together. No mention of bypassing the PCV and/or removing it. This is in part why I've been guessing on unforeseen lines and what may or may not be in them in regards to valves. As far as I know, my hidden PCV is intact behind my left radiator. Won't know until I start tearing it down. As for a Wilwood one way valve, don't see it. As you know, information is bliss...... At least the Monarch ll owner's have a little to go by.

Without a Residual Valve, I'd be hesitant trying to "condemn" the line to rear from the pedal (green) as looked at before as a possible experiment. Reason is that a common issue with Drums without a Residual is often to require pumping the brakes for Drum activation, so it could be that the reason the system "works" now without a Residual Valve is that it is in a way automatically "double pumped", being fed by the SMC and Pedal at the same time. So maybe prudent not to take a chance with that.
Make sense... I'll skip that try. Never had to pump my brakes.

It would be "safer" to try disconnecting + plugging the SMC line at the J-Block and operate the rear with the pedal only (which you can pump if needed...).....but not possible if you cannot remove the Wilwood!
I would definitely find a way to get at it if I have to.... I may have to go ape.... LOL

Another point is that it looks like pistons in MC for Drums are typically smaller than for Discs (apparently because Drums tend to "self energize" once engaged and require less pressure to activate). So the current pistons which are sized for Discs may be oversized for the Drums.

Which could explain overheating. Maybe your old ones got (luckily) glazed from overheating. causing them to be less grabby. Your new ones are just too performant.....
Interesting thought.... The sad thing is that I never had this issue. Brakes has always been great.

One mod would be to T the two lines (from SMC and Pedal) together before the J-Block and then install Residual + Proportioning Valve in the run from this T to the J-Block.....if there was any room for that.
Sounds like it would work.... It "may" be tight to run the lines from the front.

Expand above
As always, Thank You for taking the time in helping me out in trying to get this all sorted. We'll get it one way or the other. Appreciate ya, big time!!

 

[MidLife]

.....the install manual for the Monarch ll. ....

Not encouraging any DIY with that! No list for the components in the kit and they slap their own P/Ns on all third-party hardware without any way to x-reference!

But....the hydraulic schematic is interesting.

They went to two pistons caliper discs on the rear, both activated by the pedal. Then they came to realize that if the pedal has full direct power on the rear (unlike the GL) and can override any fine-tuned SMC/PCV modulation as soon as you touch it, then the extra SMC-to-the-rear complication makes little sense and they got rid of it (Line only...SMC still there). And the rear becomes pedal-activated only (but the pedal is still linked to the front, controlling 50% of the braking power there),

So they went the way we were looking at earlier:

......disconnecting + plugging the SMC line at the J-Block and operate the rear with the pedal only (which you can pump if needed...).....but not possible if you cannot remove the Wilwood!

You may consider going that way on yours as well. Get rid of everything on the back side of the SMC (Including PCV). The SMC then becomes a simple pass-through to the anti-dive.

Then no worries anymore about all rear brake fluid returns having to go "the long way around" back to reservoir.

But then you'd have to go ape...you know what I mean!

And consider installing a Residual (10 psi) and an Adjustable Proportional Valve in this rear line during said ape phase.

 

[Ray&Paula]

Not encouraging any DIY with that! No list for the components in the kit and they slap their own P/Ns on all third-party hardware without any way to x-reference!
Exactly.... Only short part list I have for mine is the following;

But....the hydraulic schematic is interesting.

They went to two pistons caliper discs on the rear, both activated by the pedal. Then they came to realize that if the pedal has full direct power on the rear (unlike the GL) and can override any fine-tuned SMC/PCV modulation as soon as you touch it, then the extra SMC-to-the-rear complication makes little sense and they got rid of it (Line only...SMC still there). And the rear becomes pedal-activated only (but the pedal is still linked to the front, controlling 50% of the braking power there),

So they went the way we were looking at earlier:




You may consider going that way on yours as well. Get rid of everything on the back side of the SMC (Including PCV). The SMC then becomes a simple pass-through to the anti-dive.

Then no worries anymore about all rear brake fluid returns having to go "the long way around" back to reservoir.

But then you'd have to go ape...you know what I mean!
The only thing is that I have read somewhere through the years "not" to change the hydraulics as they did on the disc brake Monarch ll's for the drum brakes. Basically ststing that it wouldn't work for the drum brakes. Was this a true statement?? I.M.O., I don't see why it wouldn't work as you described but, I'm not well versed and/or have the experience of working on hydraulic brake systems. What you have laid out make sense to me.....

And consider installing a Residual (10 psi) and an Adjustable Proportional Valve in this rear line during said ape phase.
Yep.... It would have to be done while going through the ape phase.....LOL

Expand above

 

[MidLife]

.....No mention of bypassing the PCV and/or removing it.......

From page 15, it looks like they are not even removing it. Just disconnecting/plugging and strapping the line down in the back.

On the front side of it, they remove the T that leads to the Anti Dive and install a custom direct line to the Anti Dive.

.....I have looked for that Residual valve but, could never find it. ....

On page 24, it looks like it is on the Swingarm, just before the T for the lines to the L and R calipers, where the J-Block would be on yours. None of that on yours.

Was there ever a time when Lehman was offering an "in-between" version, de-linked but still with Drums? The residual Valve could be a leftover from such a delinked Drum version. They could have installed it for the Drums and never bothered to remove it for the Discs, maybe?

 

[Ray&Paula]

From page 15, it looks like they are not even removing it. Just disconnecting/plugging and strapping the line down in the back.
I had to read that a few times..... You're right, they did tie off and leave the upper rear caliper line..... They actually removed the line between the upper rear caliper and union/joint (Fig 1) midway. The rest of that line is from the lower front J-Block hard line above the upper left fork which leads to the PCV. Basically, Lehman made it easier for the installers by not having to remove all the front end plastic and PCV that lives behind the left radiator. So.... anyone that has the Monarch ll has a dead PCV behind their radiator along with some hard hydraulic line. I would assume they tied off the loose front end of that line somewhere near where the J-Block was. Makes me wonder if my PCV is active????

On the front side of it, they remove the T that leads to the Anti Dive and install a custom direct line to the Anti Dive.
Exactly...... That double T for the SMC Banjo bolt was for the Anti-Dive with the other heading to the upper J-Block for the PCV. Installing a direct line between the SMC and Anti-Dive.

On page 24, it looks like it is on the Swingarm, just before the T for the lines to the L and R calipers, where the J-Block would be on yours. None of that on yours.

I may have this wrong.... go figure....LOL. along with the manual being somewhat vague.... the line from the Delay Valve runs on the right side > Residual Valve > Brass T > Right side of the T to the rear MC with the Left side of the T leading to another T for the Left and Right wheel disc calipers. Of course all of this isn't shown or talked about in the manual or their conversion schematic.

Maybe??




Honda OEM SMC / Anti-Dive Line




Was there ever a time when Lehman was offering an "in-between" version, de-linked but still with Drums? The residual Valve could be a leftover from such a delinked Drum version. They could have installed it for the Drums and never bothered to remove it for the Discs, maybe?

Those are great question's.... Sure make ya wonder. All I knew is that Lehman decided to go to disc's the following year after mine.

Expand above
Thanks for helping me go through all these posibilities. This looks simple enough but as I said earlier, I'm unsure if it makes a difference using drum brakes vs disc. My only other thought is what you pointed out earlier, placement of an adjustable PCV. I think that is a great idea in which it would help balance the system. The main thing is to make sure everything will work in unison properly. Thanks again for taking the time in helping me out!! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to You and Yours!! Ray

 

[Ray&Paula]

I Wish Everyone Here and Yours a Very Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!!
Thank You for your help and hanging in there with me!! You Guys Rock! Ray

 

[MidLife]

So.... anyone that has the Monarch ll has a dead PCV behind their radiator along with some hard hydraulic line.

That's what the "manual" seems to indicate.

The Residual Valve needs to be on the Drums side of the T. It is to hold back-pressure on the Drums when you release the pedal.

It is important not to change anything in the set up between the pedal and the front. 50% of your front braking power comes from the pedal, you do not want to affect any of it.

Honda is trying to hide some of that from you! There is more Anti Dive action when engaging the rear than the front (2 pistons activated on the left by the pedal vs only 1 by the lever), giving the impression that the pedal is acting mainly on the rear, when in fact it has the same power in the front as the front lever has.

Another note: Newer seal technology for Drums wheel cylinders may no longer require installing a Residual Valve. May be worthwhile checking what the manufacturer of your Drums is recommending. Could save you the headache of finding room for one! You'd just have to worry about the Proportional Valve.

From the manual, the actual set up for the Residual Valve on the Monarch II Discs may be more like here:




Question on the drums: What is your installation gap between shoes and drums? Have you ever had a chance to check the gap again after the first ride after install? Just wondering if there might be a ratcheting issue from the adjuster?

 

[Ray&Paula]

That's what the "manual" seems to indicate.
It sure does....






The Residual Valve needs to be on the Drums side of the T. It is to hold back-pressure on the Drums when you release the pedal.
It is important not to change anything in the set up between the pedal and the front. 50% of your front braking power comes from the pedal, you do not want to affect any of it.
Honda is trying to hide some of that from you! There is more Anti Dive action when engaging the rear than the front (2 pistons activated on the left by the pedal vs only 1 by the lever), giving the impression that the pedal is acting mainly on the rear, when in fact it has the same power in the front as the front lever has.
Makes sense.... Thanks for correcting me along with the diagram. Not surprised I got it wrong....LOL.

Another note: Newer seal technology for Drums wheel cylinders may no longer require installing a Residual Valve. May be worthwhile checking what the manufacturer of your Drums is recommending. Could save you the headache of finding room for one! You'd just have to worry about the Proportional Valve.
I just installed the new drums from Dynamic Friction before my last test. I'll get ahold of them and ask about the need of a Residual Valve.

From the manual, the actual set up for the Residual Valve on the Monarch II Discs may be more like here:
I would say that you're right especially after your explanation above and looking at my corrected diagram. Basically, the same setup I have on mine with the exception of mine being the Wilwood One-Way Flow Control Valve. Too bad the Lehman manual didn't give some specific information for placement. A little more effort on their manual would have saved a lot headaches.



Question on the drums: What is your installation gap between shoes and drums?
Have you ever had a chance to check the gap again after the first ride after install? Just wondering if there might be a ratcheting issue from the adjuster?
Being oblivious, I never checked the gap.... Honestly, I didn't know you could until I was told about it from a fellow forum member on TT HERE (See Post# 177) All I've ever done was the normal brake shoe adjustments of the star wheel adjuster. I do know that after the bike sits overnight, the shoes relax to the point of the same amount of drag I gave them.

Thanks again for taking the time in helping me understand the proper layout of where these valves need to be! Appreciate it!! Ray

 

[MidLife]

Basically, the same setup I have on mine with the exception of mine being the Wilwood One-Way Flow Control Valve.

May also help explain why some seem to think the Wilwood is a Residual Valve!

I never checked the gap.

The gauge recommended on the TT site would make it an easy task. You may want to inquire with Dynamic Friction about recommended gap while you are talking to them.

And in case you have asymmetrical shoes, also verify the short one is the leading (front) one.

 

[Ray&Paula]

May also help explain why some seem to think the Wilwood is a Residual Valve!
Exactly.... That's what I initially thought as well until I looked up Wilwoods description and availability.

The gauge recommended on the TT site would make it an easy task. You may want to inquire with Dynamic Friction about recommended gap while you are talking to them.
I'll do that.... As for the Wheel Cylinders, I went off of Lehmans NAPA part number in which they look identical to my original ones. I replaced them twice with new ones earlier on during this ordeal from thinking that something must be wrong with one or both. Plus, I also inspected them. The "rear" top shoe spring lays against the top of the WC with the "front" top spring just missing it. With that being said, that's exactly how the originals were when I did my first brake job on the trike. All of the new springs are identical as the originals. Pic's below are only a couple taken out of about two dozen from the original shoes before replacement back in 2015. Obviously, the coiled portion of the springs are not affected due not being at the body of the WC otherwise, I would have had previous issues.
And in case you have asymmetrical shoes, also verify the short one is the leading (front) one.
Absolutely..... The shorter leading shoe is always the first one I install facing the front. As for the springs, pretty hard to mistake those due to fitment/design. Plus, I always take pic's before uninstalling for double checking.

Thanks again for the help! I'll contact Dynamic Friction today. As always, appreciate it!! Ray

Original before removal back in 2015:


Original Closeup:


Latest Closeup of three new changes from this entire ordeal:


Latest of three new changes from this entire ordeal:

 

[MidLife]

....As for the Wheel Cylinders, I went off of Lehmans NAPA part number .....

Lucky they x-referenced this one!

Running a Residual or not seems to be related to the WC cup seal technology (self-energized seals should be able to work without back pressure from a Residual Valve).

So the WC manufacturer might also offer some guidance on that.