Thanks.... Appreciate it. Ray
Bleeding Proportioning Valve
- Thread starter SpikingJC
- Start date
That leaves Dynamic Friction.....
You said you already verified the left front was releasing promptly when releasing the pedal.
But I don't remember if you also tried the same with the Drums (while the rear is lifted)?
Thanks, appreciate it!! Ray
I should have emphasized "instant" release.
If the Drums release when letting go of the pedal, you've shown free return "the long way around" to the rear reservoir.
And you've also done the SMC check. Not much more you can do to check the health of your hydraulics.
Not sure the heat would make much difference. The brake fluid becomes thinner and should flow easier. And if the reservoir is not overfilled, there shouldn't be any pressure buildup.
There is one case on the Trike where the PCV is in a situation it doesn't see on the GL (or ST).
On the GL, once the Shut Off Valve in the PCV is closed (when a Honda preset braking pressure is reached), the downstream pressure (pressure to the rear brake) will be equal or lower than the upstream pressure from the SMC. The PCV is limiting (and lowering) the pressure from the SMC to the rear.
On the Trike, there may be a situation where the pressure downstream of the PCV Shut Off (from the pedal) could be greater than on the other side (from the SMC), as unlike the GL you can keep increasing the pressure passed the closed PCV Shut Off Valve by pressing the pedal.
I am not familiar enough with the Shut Off Valve to know for sure if a "reverse" pressure differential across it (Drum Pressure higher than SMC side pressure) could affect it. All I know is that the Shut Off has to move forwards to reopen (against the downstream pressure) and it may not be very happy to do that if this downstream pressure (Brake Pressure) it has to move against is now higher than the front pressure (from the SMC). So there may be some delay before the pressure trapped between the PCV (with Shut Off valve reticent to reopen) and the Drums is released.
On the other hand, only Honda knows at what pressure this limiting Shut Off Valve closes. So no telling how often it is actually activated.
And it should have done the same with the old brakes....unless you've done a much better job this time around with getting all the air out, maybe!
One way to test would be a ride with aggressive braking with the front only (no topping-off the rear with the pedal,,,,while you get an itchy foot!). No pedal, to avoid the reverse pressure differential scenario. And then check if the Drums are still heating up. Not an overly convincing test as the front engages only one piston against the SMC, hence being gentle on the rear anyway.
Another way to test would be, when you get in there to replace the PCV, to make a few runs without the PCV, bypass the PCV altogether. No better way to check if the PCV is in the way or not.
Am not even sure the PCV is of much use on the Trike, as its purpose is to limit the pressure to the rear...while at any time you want, you can override whatever clever things the PCV is trying to do to the rear pressure by applying the pedal.
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Thanks for giving me some more possibilities towards a fix. I haven't heard back from Dynamic Friction yet, maybe because of the holidays. Hopefully, they'll respond back one way or the other. If not, I'll reach out again next week. As always, Thanks again for all your input in helping me out! Appreciate it!! Ray
Isn't there also a bleeder by the PCV (like we have on the ST) that would need to be accessed for flushing? Sounds nightmarish!
What you describe here could be just by itself a good part of the reason they ended up getting rid of this section of the brake circuit! Wise move.
Simplest would be you find a bug with the drums, but it all looks so good!
Best of luck and keep us posted!
Expand aboveIsn't there also a bleeder by the PCV (like we have on the ST) that would need to be accessed for flushing? Sounds nightmarish!
No bleeder at the PCV, all it has is two in/out hard hydraulic lines once you get to it which is buried. Closest place to bleed off is at the J-Block at the upper left fork which is also a hard line. This J-Block is between the SMC & PCV just above the left fork. Honda didn't employ anything for independent PCV bleeding. This bleeding procedure at the J-Block is called the Rocky Bleed. It's a two step bleeding procedure the was implemented by Rocky from a former member of a different forum. I went out and got a flexible wrench just like his (as shown below and in the link) which worked beautifully. Main thing is to get a rag around the immediate area and a good helper for performing the pump & hold bleed method. Easy job with the proper wrench. Just crack it open and close quickly three to five times as he explains in the following link.... Hopefully you can download & open it. I didn't have a problem..... Rocky Bleed Here
What you describe here could be just by itself a good part of the reason they ended up getting rid of this section of the brake circuit! Wise move.
Probably was..... I'm sure it was better for the installers bypassing the PCV. One thing for sure, I have learned an enormous amount throughout this process!
Simplest would be you find a bug with the drums, but it all looks so good!
I hear ya.....
Best of luck and keep us posted!
Thank You!! I will definitely keep everyone here posted as I move forward. As always, I sincerely appreciate your help and input!! Ray
No bleeder at the PCV, ......closest place to bleed off is at the J-Block at the upper left fork which is also a hard line.....This bleeding procedure at the J-Block is called the Rocky Bleed.
Did Rocky originally introduce this bleeding step to address a rear disc "Shudder" issue on "non-converted" GLs that Honda couldn't figure out?
Yes, the bleed procedure is for a OEM Honda GL1800 Goldwing. Not stated for a trike conversion but I.M.O., those that are converted maintaining the same linked system, it should work. Yes, it came from the "Shudder" issue that many were having. Reading his write-up, it sounds like a former mechanic tried the method and Rocky ran with it testing it out further confirming the J-Block bleed. Rocky then came across another mechanic from AZ in the forum that also bleeds the SMC Banjo bolt as a last step in which he recommended. As far as I know, Honda has never acknowledged this procedure. I have read many threads on the "Rocky Bleed" which has helped many riders. Was you able to download the .pdf link? Thanks and Happy New Year to Ya!! Ray
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Yes. First thought it was Trike specific, but then it started to look more like a general GL issue, I wasn't sure.
Seems to make sense that air would accumulate at the high point and that a bleeder should have been at that location. Not sure why there is one on the ST but not on the GL.
The "Rocky bleed" procedure makes total sense (too bad you cannot see just how much air might be coming out).
There must have been many unhappy GL riders out there with the Shudder.
But as you say and have done, a must for the Trike as well.
You may have a slight advantage with the Trike, with rear pedal fluid being displaced to the reservoir the long way around and maybe entraining some air with it along the way.
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Thanks again for your input, appreciate it big time!! Happy new Year!! RayYes. First thought it was Trike specific, but then it started to look more like a general GL issue, I wasn't sure.
Glad you was able to download the pdf.
Seems to make sense that air would accumulate at the high point and that a bleeder should have been at that location. Not sure why there is one on the ST but not on the GL.
Total sense to me as well since air rises.... I truly believe Honda can see this potential problem of getting air trapped, especially at a high point of the run along with distance. They buried it pretty good on the GL1800's behind the left radiator which made it impossible to get at for a normal bleed procedure. BUT I.M.O., I'm sure a bleed valve could have been designed / incorporated for that high J-Block. It's not right in your face but, since you can get a wrench on it, you surely can get a bleeder hose on a bleeder valve.
The "Rocky bleed" procedure makes total sense (too bad you cannot see just how much air might be coming out).
I hear ya.... the way it's linked, you have to spend some time bleeding to make sure.
There must have been many unhappy GL riders out there with the Shudder.
Oh yea.... Shudder along with some lockups.... The SMC recall was blamed on this along with Honda blaming poor owner maintenance along with changing the design of internal valving....
But as you say and have done, a must for the Trike as well.
Absolutely.
You may have a slight advantage with the Trike, with rear pedal fluid being displaced to the reservoir the long way around and maybe entraining some air with it along the way.
For sure...That run is very long. That's why I flip flopped on the rear bleeding procedure for choosing the longest run. I've been told years ago, start with the left rear in which I've always done. Plus, it looks like the longest run due to circling all the way around from the rear brake pedal as you can see in my trike diagram. I bled starting on the left as usual after the SMC install which failed in my road test, then I re-bled by starting on the right side which failed the road test as well. The line from the J-Block on the left rear axle is a little over 3' long reaching the right wheel so I thought, give it a try. Moving forward, I'm going to start on the left as I always have in the past. I went through that simply due to finding it hard to believe it wasn't the SMC like so many others...
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Just wanted to touch base..... Looks like Dynamic Friction doesn't want to get back with me on those measurements. I did contact Wilwood asking them if they supplied Lehman with any of their disc brake parts back when they were being built. Their answer was the following;
From previous emails with other Lehman owners, I know the 11.2” rotor is 160-8484, and we still have some for $179 each. There was also a larger 11.9” rotor, but we no longer have them. The rear caliper was a Dynapro Single, but I do not know which piston size they used.
Other than that, that's all they could offer in regards to what Lehman used but, it's a something. Of course, there are many other factors involved such as mounting to the axle, etc. The pictures in the Monarch ll manual shows a different rear axle than mine. With only knowing about the few parts available and not knowing anything about mounting for disc brakes, I'm going to keep moving forward on my drum brake situation throughout the winter. I won't be able to road test but, I'll probably change out the PCV and will go over everything I can and re-bleed. Once I'm able to road test or find something that may be obvious, I'll definitely report back here. If anyone has something else that comes to mind, please jump in. I Thank all of you here for taking the time in helping me out. I sincerely appreciate it more than words can say. Ray
Monarch ll Manual
www.manualslib.com
From previous emails with other Lehman owners, I know the 11.2” rotor is 160-8484, and we still have some for $179 each. There was also a larger 11.9” rotor, but we no longer have them. The rear caliper was a Dynapro Single, but I do not know which piston size they used.
Other than that, that's all they could offer in regards to what Lehman used but, it's a something. Of course, there are many other factors involved such as mounting to the axle, etc. The pictures in the Monarch ll manual shows a different rear axle than mine. With only knowing about the few parts available and not knowing anything about mounting for disc brakes, I'm going to keep moving forward on my drum brake situation throughout the winter. I won't be able to road test but, I'll probably change out the PCV and will go over everything I can and re-bleed. Once I'm able to road test or find something that may be obvious, I'll definitely report back here. If anyone has something else that comes to mind, please jump in. I Thank all of you here for taking the time in helping me out. I sincerely appreciate it more than words can say. Ray
Monarch ll Manual
LEHMAN TRIKES MONARCH II HONDA GL1800 INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS MANUAL Pdf Download
View and Download lehman Trikes Monarch II Honda GL1800 installation instructions manual online. Monarch II Honda GL1800 offroad vehicle pdf manual download.
www.manualslib.com
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Do you have new drums or had the old ones turned?
Asking as I read about some people arcing the shoes to have the radius of the shoes matching the drums. Not sure it would help in your case as arcing will mainly ensure full engagement for better braking...and you do not seem to have an issue with the brake being weak.
I've also seen 1 mm gap mentioned when using the gap gauge.
But it seems many are just fine with backing the shoes off until you don't hear them touching anymore.
Happy New Year and winter drumming!
Do you have new drums or had the old ones turned?
I did have the old ones turned and ran a few test's with those. I then decided to get the new one's from Dynamic Friction which are really nice with a baked on finish.
Asking as I read about some people arcing the shoes to have the radius of the shoes matching the drums. Not sure it would help in your case as arcing will mainly ensure full engagement for better braking...and you do not seem to have an issue with the brake being weak.
Interesting....
I've also seen 1 mm gap mentioned when using the gap gauge.
But it seems many are just fine with backing the shoes off until you don't hear them touching anymore.
I did close to that but, not completely. I will definitely give that a shot and test. Nothing to lose since my fronts are good....
Happy New Year and winter drumming!
Happy New Year to You as well!! Yes sir, winter drumming for sure!As always, Thank You!! Ray
