Group Riding Fail

[Sadlsor]

There are lots of opinions, and even some excellent tips on group riding in general.
I don't need to add my perspective, but it is a fact that *some* riders will fall into the habit of target fixating on the rider directly in front of them, and neglecting what should be habitual -- that is, looking far, near, in front, beside and behind.
Simply riding in a group is not to eliminate or replace your standard responsibility for your own behavior.
Thus, riding staggered with usual following distance, should be no more dangerous than a typical motorcycle ride.
Operative words "should be."

 

[sky.high]

Hi @Uncle Phil, for the following reasons, the 'crumbs' will tend to race each other. One rider stopping and expecting all other riders to pass at junctions is dangerous, most accidents happen at junctions. A stopped rider trying to identify the sweep from other riders in the group or other bikes and pull away without impeding the sweep and following vehicles is almost impossible on busy roads. I generally don't ride in groups, its often less fun, slower and the increased workload looking out for the other riders makes it higher risk.

 

[SMSW]

Hi @Uncle Phil, for the following reasons, the 'crumbs' will tend to race each other. One rider stopping and expecting all other riders to pass at junctions is dangerous, most accidents happen at junctions. A stopped rider trying to identify the sweep from other riders in the group or other bikes and pull away without impeding the sweep and following vehicles is almost impossible on busy roads.

From my experience in D n S riding (STOC's and our Wednesday BMW group) what you said has not been my experience. First, both groups tend to avoid busy roads (going thru town is unavoidable but unless its lunch time, most towns are small). Second, every crumb (I prefer pointer) has his arm out, is waving other bikes in the appropriate direction, or otherwise acting NOT like a biker in trouble, and all have pulled OFF the road. I've never seen any racing - save the occasional guy in the middle of the group who gets passed anywhere. I will confess id'ing TEC can be difficult. Once a biker approached me (a crumb), pulled in behind me like our sweeper and waved me on. Once we made the turn, he zoomed on ahead - just a polite, friendly local biker. I 'U'ed and returned to my post. That is remedied by everyone noting what TEC is wearing (recently a green vest) or other distinctive markings visible from the front of his bike.

Just my observations, and not discounting yours.

 

[dduelin]

Hi @Uncle Phil, for the following reasons, the 'crumbs' will tend to race each other. One rider stopping and expecting all other riders to pass at junctions is dangerous, most accidents happen at junctions. A stopped rider trying to identify the sweep from other riders in the group or other bikes and pull away without impeding the sweep and following vehicles is almost impossible on busy roads. I generally don't ride in groups, its often less fun, slower and the increased workload looking out for the other riders makes it higher risk.

It’s obviously not for everybody but I for one that rigorously avoids riding in groups find drop and sweep a perfectly safe way to follow a circuitous route in a large group. If it wasn’t I would not have considered continuing to ride the first one or ever attending another. At times there isn’t even another rider in view and after starting out rarely is the group ever in close contact. Perhaps the difference in opinion could be attributed to setting and routes.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Hi @Uncle Phil, for the following reasons, the 'crumbs' will tend to race each other. One rider stopping and expecting all other riders to pass at junctions is dangerous, most accidents happen at junctions. A stopped rider trying to identify the sweep from other riders in the group or other bikes and pull away without impeding the sweep and following vehicles is almost impossible on busy roads. I generally don't ride in groups, its often less fun, slower and the increased workload looking out for the other riders makes it higher risk.

I appreciate your reply, but that's not how it works in practice. You've always got some folks that want to run faster than others but folks find their 'pace' and ride it. If I get complaints about 'racers' then I deal with it. I have asked riders to go ride somewhere else if they create safety problems. Making everyone ride at the same speed makes the slow guy 'nervous' and prone to go faster than they should and the fast guys are bored out of their mind and their attention wanders. I don't drop breadcrumbs (and neither do others) right 'at' a junction - the instructions are simple - first pick a safe spot out of traffic, then pick a visible spot before the junction so people approaching know what to do before they get there. As SMSW said, usually hand motions or signals are on to direct the upcoming riders. I provide highway construction vests for me and the sweep so as not to get them confused with the high-viz jackets. Also, I encourage the sweep to use their 4-way flashers and horn so the breadcrumb knows he is the sweep (we've used cars, trucks, and 3 wheelers as sweeps before). Also, one of the jobs of the sweep is to protect the breadcrumb from traffic so they can pull out from the side safely in front of the sweep without Suzy on the cell phone not 'seeing' them. I appreciate those that don't like group rides and understand that thinking. As I said, Drop and Sweep is not perfect but it is far better than any other riding system I've used in fifty years of leading group rides. I find trying to 'watch' the rider behind me to make sure I don't lose him can be very dangerous because any time I am not looking ahead will be the time the car pulls out in front of me. Drop and Sweep allows each rider to ride at the pace that suits them without worrying about keeping up with the rider in front and watching out for the rider behind. As Dave noted, often we are spread out so far that you don't see another rider until you see a breadcrumb. You just ride til you see a 'breadcrumb' then you know what to do. It is much simpler in practice than it is in 'explanation'. If you've never experienced it, you might think a little differently if you do - or maybe not.

 

[dduelin]

The only issue may be that there is so much distance and time between riders is the crumb gets anxious waiting and thinks the ride went another direction and left them there, so he or she rides off and breaks the chain of bread crumbs. I have seen this happen or at least that is what the bread crumb said later.

Phil always stresses not to leave your post and when I've led drop & sweep rides I also stress it. Someone will be along, you just have to be patient.

 

[rwthomas1]

I ride alone, yeah
With nobody else
I ride alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I ride alone
I prefer to be by myself...

A leader nor a follower will I be. Give me the address, I'll see you when I get there.

RT

 

[sky.high]

I'll never be convinced dropping a faster rider to the back of a group and then allowing that rider to overtake everyone else in the group but the leader is a good idea LOL

 

[TourNut]

I used to ride in GWRRA group rides where almost all of the GoldWings had CBs that kept the group informed well - that worked the best .
I also was in a BMW group's rides ( back when I had my lemon R1200RT ) ; the BMWs had no CBs ( except only one - mine , but you need at least 2 w/ CBs ) and those rides left half the group behind & lost , almost every ride ! At that point you just go home ...annoyed !
Without CBs in a group ride , the "Drop & Sweep" method does work well . - ( the BMW group here SHOULD use that method )
At least though , all the group rides I have been on were in staggered formation & 2-4 seconds , or more , between each other & saw lots of obvious reasons for that over the years , with Michigan's crappy roads .

 

[paulcb]

I'll never be convinced dropping a faster rider to the back of a group and then allowing that rider to overtake everyone else in the group but the leader is a good idea LOL

What you may be misunderstanding is the "group" is not packed together... it generally stretches out and can be 1-3 miles long, so a "faster" rider is generally only passing one bike at at time. You may want to try it and understand how it works IRL before criticizing it, since thousands of riders have been using it safely for years.

 

[sky.high]

What you may be misunderstanding is the "group" is not packed together... it generally stretches out and can be 1-3 miles long, so a "faster" rider is generally only passing one bike at at time. You may want to try it and understand how it works IRL before criticizing it, since thousands of riders have been using it safely for years.

I have done a lot of group riding with the Institute of Advanced Motorcyclists, trained and often lead by police riding instructors, I was also a group observer/instructor but not a cop.

 

[ReSTored]

I've done many rides with the "crumb" method, several led by UP, and they work well in terms of keeping a large group of people together, in particular when the route is new to many. Couple of caveats though.......... the "crumb" has to stay where he/she is posted or the whole system collapses. If the next rider(s) takes a while to get there then the "crumb" can become nervous about the time delay and just ride off........it happens. Second thing is that the wait spot has to be safely out of traffic, some have had a LEO stop and tell them to move on, which can mess things up as well.

As to faster riders constantly passing people and moving from the rear to the front repeatedly then that rider should be asking themselves if they're on the right ride.

 

[Uncle Phil]

I have done a lot of group riding with the Institute of Advanced Motorcyclists, trained and often lead by police riding instructors, I was also a group observer/instructor but not a cop.

Personally, riding in group, no passing, watching your rear view mirror, trying to stay together, etc. turns into parade at some point - although it may be a fast moving parade.
It also assumes all riders are of the same riding level and that is never the case with a ST event.
So on the surface, your method seems to more dangerous to me, but then I've never ridden with you so I don't really know and am not qualified to pass judgment on your method.
IMHO, a lot of activities 'look dangerous' to outside observer from a distance who has never participated in that particular form.
I do not do group rides because I especially love to to do group rides.
I do group rides as a service to folks so they can enjoy the camaraderie and see roads in the area that they probably don't know about.
At the end of the day, you really don't have a feel for how it works unless you have participated.

 

[dduelin]

I'll never be convinced dropping a faster rider to the back of a group and then allowing that rider to overtake everyone else in the group but the leader is a good idea LOL

Well, it's not for everybody as we said but it's amazing how waiting on the side of the road waiting for the end of the line tempers the need to pass everyone. The rider that needs to pass everyone ends up being a bread crumb all day.

 

[Mondo]

I'll never be convinced dropping a faster rider to the back of a group and then allowing that rider to overtake everyone else in the group but the leader is a good idea LOL

During a Drop and Sweep ride at one of Kevin’s WI events, a former racer joined us on his Ducati. He was amazing and it was fun to watch him as he blew everybody away. It was safe and enjoyable for him as he was able to ride at his pace. He ended up being a crumb quite often which was fine for everyone. Absolutely no problem and each rode their own pace. Please don’t judge without experience.

Greg

 

[wjbertrand]

Close riding formation also led to the accident here that killed 7 riders at once. Distanced out and staggered, perhaps only one or two bike would have been hit.

Truck Company Owners Indicted In Crash That Killed 7 Motorcyclists - Adventure Rider

The owners of Massachusetts trucking company Westfield Transport are facing charges of falsifying records and lying to authorities.

advrider.com

 

[Sadlsor]

I don't know that anyone can assure us that in such an event, reckless and random as it was, any rider or group of riders could have done much to avoid this.
We weren't there.
Sure, some may have escaped death, but at the same time, more could well have perished.
What is remarkable, is the fact that with all the satellite tracking capabilities, cell phone eavesdropping, social media scrutiny and all the other countless, insidious invasions of privacy perpetrated every minute of our lives by our government, the beaurocracies which mindlessly and carelessly encroach upon our civil liberties are incapable of using this same technology to make our lives safer.
"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

 

[ad.hom]

That is remedied by everyone noting what TEC is wearing (recently a green vest) or other distinctive markings visible from the front of his bike.

We noted this problem some time ago, so in our group, Leader, TEC and all "pre-nominated markers" wear high vis bibs. Often custom ones with the name of that ride on the back.

I'll never be convinced dropping a faster rider to the back of a group and then allowing that rider to overtake everyone else in the group but the leader is a good idea LOL

Some people are idiots, and that attracts the eyes of the law. Everyone in our group is more than happy to point the finger at the utter tool when the blue lights turn on. That works as a fairly good incentive to behave.

 

[Larry Fine]

I'll never be convinced dropping a faster rider to the back of a group and then allowing that rider to overtake everyone else in the group but the leader is a good idea LOL

I learned that lesson the very first day. No point in passing everyone, just to be dropped off at the next turn.

I will, however, pass someone whose riding skill differ enough for following them to be risky for both of us.

 

[Larry Fine]

Couple of caveats though.......... the "crumb" has to stay where he/she is posted or the whole system collapses. If the next rider(s) takes a while to get there then the "crumb" can become nervous about the time delay and just ride off........it happens.

When that happened to me, I turned around to find those who were missing, which I did, and led them back on course..