Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batter

[George]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

I don't know how picky 1100s are. Without fuel injection, they should need less power to start.

Jim

11 still needs some juice as well to power the ICU and "charge" and trigger the coils.

 

[SteveST1300]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

My understanding of the shorai is that if you use heated gear it will adversely affect the battery.

 

[wjbertrand]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Think of it like drinking from a straw on a hot day. Whether you are drinking from an 8oz cup, or a 2 gallon jug, you are still drawing the same amount through the straw. The only difference is, with the 2 gallon jug, you can drink longer before it empties

Good analogy, gonna remember that one.

 

[wjbertrand]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

My understanding of the shorai is that if you use heated gear it will adversely affect the battery.

Can't imagine why this would be true, electrical draw is electrical draw. The adverse effect on a Shorai battery would be the same as for a conventional battery in that the heated gear could cause the battery to discharge if the alternator were not able to keep up with the heated gear.

 

[st1300r]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Steve, any theory why the shorai would care or even know if you had heated gear?

Hoping blrfl's alaska data point reports on the actual cca performance with this type of battery.

Be careful with the shoria comparisons. There ratings are "equivalents" to a agm not actual ratings.
There's some marketing wizzardry in there as they are really saying you can drain a LiFe more wihout damaging it.
The actual Ahr rating is less than the oem.

fwiw odyessy pc545 is the one often used not the pc680 for the 1300 don't know about the 1100.

 

[SteveST1300]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Guys I am not sure at all I read it in one of the original posts about these batteries. Might even have been on the shorai site. I was asking if that really is the case. As I am due for a new battery soon and this would be a great option especially if this is not true. Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Gus1300]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Have jump started a lawnmower from a GMC S15 battery (running), don't know why a motorcycle would be any different. It's the stored energy capacity to withstand the draw, as explained earlier, not the cold cranking amps push capacity (either from the car alternator or battery), that matters. Just bought an Odyssy battery for my RV-8 experimental that I am using as a bench power supply for the time being until it goes into it's fuselage home for good; perfect for anything requiring 12V, as long as the circuit is designed right a car/wheelchair/etc battery won't push any more current than the devices will draw. Already ops tested with the starter and battery solenoids, and the fuseblock/Stebel horn relays prior to installation to be sure they operated and wires were labeled correctly.

 

[Firstpeke]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Nothing will overheat and cook a bike battery than jumping it off a running car.... or SUV.... the bike battery has an internal resistance lower than that of the car battery, because you are charging the bike battery in parallel to that of the car, the bike battery will take more current. perhaps significantly more than it was designed to take from a bike charging circuit.
Bike, or other small batteries are designed to be charged over a longer period at a lower current, typically less than an amp.

The EMF or "electro motive force" of the car charging system will be capable of delivering a high charging current which the car battery can take, but the bike can not.
You may also burn out the output coils of the alternator if things go badly wrong.....

You should never start a bike of another vehicle battery with the engine running on the other vehicle, not recommended at all.

You should also disconnect the slave battery as soon as the bike is running.

 

[SupraSabre]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

My understanding of the shorai is that if you use heated gear it will adversely affect the battery.

That could be a bummer...I'll have to check that out!

 

[TomD]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Starting a bike off of a car battery may indeed draw less current than off of an MC battery. The larger battery will maintain a higher voltage longer. Inductive loads, such as starter motors, will need a certain number of watts. If motors don't get the voltage, amperage rises to give the wattage required. The relationship between amperage (I), voltage (E) and wattage (P) is expressed as P=IE. That would be PIE to most of the members here. The only harm I could see is, if the auto battery was in a deeply discharged state, the alternator will operate at max effort and cause excess heat in its winding. This heat will lead to premature failure of the alternator.

Tom

 

[Norm]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

No problems with increasing the battery capacity during cranking. The larger the battery capacity the better.
There is no truth at all to the myth that a larger battery will somehow push more amps. This simply makes no sense at all. What actually happens is that the cranking speed will go up and the average cranking current will go down. You can easily measure both by means of an ammeter. What kills starters is using too small a battery capacity as then the peak cranking current goes up. You will require an amp probe an oscilloscope to see this effect but it is well known.

As for a larger capacity battery creating charging system issues.....depends on the alternator. The old automotiveo alternators didn't care and would run at full output until the battery was charged but some of the later ones were able to deliver more current than the alternator could sustain and would fail. A common issue after someone had boosted a dead battery.

The ST11 & 1300 alternators wouldn't care, IME, about charging a low battery of high capacity but some permanent magnet alternators might cook the VRR or stator from running at full output over a long time. Bad design. Don't be concerned about the ST in either starting or running a big battery (as in a side car) on an ST system as it will simply be a benefit.

HIH

Norm

I am sorry, I didn't explain it properly. I am connecting an auto battery by way of jumper cable to have more capacity for getting it started than a smaller amp hour motorcycle battery.

 

[FOG]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Nothing will overheat and cook a bike battery than jumping it off a running car.... or SUV.... the bike battery has an internal resistance lower than that of the car battery, because you are charging the bike battery in parallel to that of the car, the bike battery will take more current. perhaps significantly more than it was designed to take from a bike charging circuit.
Bike, or other small batteries are designed to be charged over a longer period at a lower current, typically less than an amp.

The EMF or "electro motive force" of the car charging system will be capable of delivering a high charging current which the car battery can take, but the bike can not.
You may also burn out the output coils of the alternator if things go badly wrong.....

You should never start a bike of another vehicle battery with the engine running on the other vehicle, not recommended at all.

You should also disconnect the slave battery as soon as the bike is running.

A few things are incorrect here, as for the internal resistance being lower, every battery differs, but it is NOT lower resistance that makes it detrimental to charge under high amps, it is purely HEAT related. MC batteries are MUCH smaller for their output, and have much less mass and surface area to dissipate heat, so they can overheat and warp internal components. This does take time, yes installing jumpers from any other battery, car truck another MC etc, then going back in the house for a shower, shave and coffee would not be advisable, as the battery could OVERHEAT. But remember a running bike has the ability to provide 55 amps to the battery from the alternator, still enough to overheat a battery.

As for burning out the MC alternator, not unless you hook it up backwards.

 

[Hound]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Not quite the same thing, but I planned to fit two MotoBatt MBTX9U batteries in parallel, one in the usual place and one in the rear cowl... however, I haven't got round to getting the second MotoBatt yet. I didn't fancy fitting all the extra heavy-duty cabling, etc.

The MotoBatt has been a smashing battery by the way.

 

[George]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Hound, you only need the heavy cables if the second battery is gonna be in the starter circuit. The charging amps are pretty small (happens over long time) as opposed to the instant draw/high amps of a start cycle. Add a relay into the circuit so the second battery is disconnected when ya push the starter button. Use ~ 16 gauge to hook up the second battery and yu'll be good.

 

[nhdiesel]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Hound, you only need the heavy cables if the second battery is gonna be in the starter circuit. The charging amps are pretty small (happens over long time) as opposed to the instant draw/high amps of a start cycle. Add a relay into the circuit so the second battery is disconnected when ya push the starter button. Use ~ 16 gauge to hook up the second battery and yu'll be good.

True. But I would run the larger cable so both batteries are used while starting. The cables aren't that large, and using two batteries means the starter turns faster/easier and quicker starts, along with a cooler starter if a long crank is required.

 

[Ross Smith]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

There is a thread on Shorai batteries elsewhere in this forum. This really doesn't belong here, but I'll post it to answer questions entered previously.

The Shorai is not adversely affected in any way by heated gear. I use it all the time from late summer on up here.

A battery is a battery. It's an electro / chemical storage device. In a motorcycle or car, it's designed mainly to be a starting device and a storage device, less so. Without the alternator supplying sufficient power any load on it will drain it the same way, based on current demand and battery capacity. The only real difference is that the Shorai's lower safe operating voltage is a bit higher than a lead / acid's but the Shorai starts at a higher resting voltage, (approx 13.6 volts) and has greater capacity, making it take longer to reach the lower point. It can also recharge far faster than a matching lead / acid as it has a higher rated charge current capacity. For mine, that's 18 amps.

One thing to note... Those ST1100 owners still using the permanent magnet alternator could adversely affect the Shorai battery as the speed of the alternator at idle combined with what loading you have on it may drop the alternator output below the safe minimum voltage of the Shorai, (12.4 volts). This is not an issue with the 40 amp alternator.

Ross

 

[Norm]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

This is incorrect. The relative resistance of the batteries in parallel has no effect. Each battery will have the same voltage applied and each will charge at a rate related to its series resistance and counter EMF. The smaller battery will simply charge at a proportionally lower current.

Of course, the obvious flaw in the reasoning presented is that eh ST alternator is and automotive alternator which just happens to be operating with a small motorcycle battery. If the same alternator were in a Suzuki automobile or New Holland tractor it would operate with a much, much larger battery.

There is also no issue in starting an ST with the other vehicle's engine running (alternator charging) because all three ST alternator types are controlled field alternators. If the set point voltage of the ST alternator happens to be lower than that of the automobile, the ST alternator will simply not charge until the jumper cables are disconnected. If the ST's alternator voltage set point is higher than that of the automobile, the ST's alternator will charge and the auto's not until the cables are removed.

The only issue of concern, IMO, would be when jumping an automobile from an ST because the high cranking current may cause a connector bar failure in the small motorcycle battery or warp battery plates due to to high current output (with resulting high heat). In this event I recommend running the bike for long enough to charge the auto battery sufficiently so that this high current event will be avoided.

There are issues in jump starting a permanent magnet field alternator from a system having a higher voltage regulator set point such as very likely with the garden tractor mentioned. Many of these systems use a load shunt type voltage regulation which will almost certainly precipitate a regulator failure to the permanent magnet system. This is not always the case with permanent magnet alternator systems since some use stator leg shunting or blocking (clipper circuit) but that's another subject area and I'm going to bed. I have written on this subject on some of the ST groups so anyone interested may find something here or more likely from when I used to post on My-Mc.

HIH

Norm

Nothing will overheat and cook a bike battery than jumping it off a running car.... or SUV.... the bike battery has an internal resistance lower than that of the car battery, because you are charging the bike battery in parallel to that of the car, the bike battery will take more current. perhaps significantly more than it was designed to take from a bike charging circuit.
Bike, or other small batteries are designed to be charged over a longer period at a lower current, typically less than an amp.

The EMF or "electro motive force" of the car charging system will be capable of delivering a high charging current which the car battery can take, but the bike can not.
You may also burn out the output coils of the alternator if things go badly wrong.....

You should never start a bike of another vehicle battery with the engine running on the other vehicle, not recommended at all.

You should also disconnect the slave battery as soon as the bike is running.

 

[Firstpeke]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

I live and learn Norm, I live and learn......... even if the smell of a cooking battery is lingering in my nostrils.........4:

 

[Hound]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

Thank you gents - the idea was to have both batteries in the loop when starting. So far the MotoBatt has significantly outperformed the bike's two previous Yuasas in terms of retaining its charge, so fitting a second battery has become less of a priority.

(end of minor thread hijack)

 

[SupraSabre]

Re: Have any of you used an auto battery to have more capacity than a motorcycle batt

So this morning my battery decided it didn't want to play anymore, so I finally bump started it with some effort and then rode it to work. Once at work, I turned it off and then back on to test start it. It started but pretty weak! I called around SD to find a battery and the two shops I called didn't have any ST1300 batteries. So I called Chaparral and asked if they had the Shorai (18A/Hr) and they did, so I rode all the way up there to pick one up. After applying the appropriate foam (that comes with it) I now have it installed and the bike is ready to go in the morning! My last battery (Yuasa), I bought in August of 2009 and actually installed it in November 09.. so it lasted two years. I sure hope this one lasts a heck of a lot longer! :