Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
Sorry about that Larry.
I didn't intend my reply to sound so terse. I was just trying to give the short answer.
Motor oil
- Thread starter Rick Fisher
- Start date
I didn't intend my reply to sound so terse. I was just trying to give the short answer.
No problem. I don't take things personally . . . even when I should.
So, is it a fact that Rotella is chemically incapable of meeting JASO standards, or only incapable of becoming certified?
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
In my view, either way the result is the same. Without some form of corroboration, it is nothing more than an unverified claim.No problem. I don't take things personally . . . even when I should.
So, is it a fact that Rotella is chemically incapable of meeting JASO standards, or only incapable of becoming certified?
Everyone is free to embrace their own opinions, below is mine.
A given engine oil service rating is the minimum specifications that an engine oil and its additive package must meet in order to be granted that rating. These are not JASO service ratings. JASO uses existing engine oil industry ratings systems that are controlled by and granted by one of several world-wide regulating bodies that we are familiar with such as API, SAE, etc..
JASO's prerequisite is that the oil must first be certified with at least one of 16 service ratings that are currently recognized and in force in the engine oil industry.
JASO then adds additional criteria over and above that rating that must be met in order for that oil to attain the additional certification of MA.
If an oil's chemical composition is such that it does not meet the minimum requirements needed to be granted one of the oil industry's 16 qualifying ratings that JASO has stated is a prerequisite, by extension it also does not meet the minimum requirement mandated by JASO, even before the additional requirements of MA are factored in.
I wonder why Shell hasn't been sued yet? If they can't meet the JASO standard they say they can, you'd think someone would've already sued them for millions for making a false claim. That's called false advertising! I foresee a class action lawsuit in the future.
Plus, there's all the engines and clutches that were damaged by not having a product that met the JASO standard. There's got to be more millions to be had for some attorney's out there.
Chris
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
There have been not been any assertions by anyone that Rotella is not a good oil, or that it does cause clutch slippage, or that using it will cause engine damage. The discussion has been about whether or not it is a JASO MA certified oil. Until a claim has been corroborated, it is only the opinion of whomever is stating it. Whether that contravenes some labeling law or not is beyond me. That is for JASO to deal with if they so choose.
It does not state that it is JASO MA certified on the label. It does not state that it is on their website. It is not on the list of JASO MA certified oils. I have previously posted an email response from Shell USA confirming that Rotella does not have JASO MA certification, and that they have never submitted it for JASO MA certification, and at that time had no plans to. It is not JASO MA certified.
There are many people who like this oil and choose to use it and have never had a problem, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I have used it as well with no problem, but I don't intentionally mislead others by telling them that it is a JASO MA oil, because it isn't.
No matter how fond people are of it, and no matter how well it performs, none of that makes it a JASO MA certified oil.
For those people like yourself for whom JASO MA certification is not of importance, it is irrelevant whether it is certified or not and they will happily continue to use it. I see nothing wrong with that, their choice.
For those for whom it does matter, understanding the difference between a claim of compliance and an actual certification of compliance might be of interest to them. I see nothing wrong with understanding that difference either.
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Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
The above was made in reference to a statement expressed by Larry. I have respect for the depth of knowledge and experience that Larry has with the ST1300. Based on the above quote, it appears obvious that you share that sentiment as well, including trusting his opinion on choice of oils.
I get that you don't agree with anything that I have stated on this topic and my opinion in this matter, even though it is all public information. That's fine, its all good by me. However, take a moment to consider that the same wealth of experience that you have come to trust, and whose opinion you do respect, has come to the conclusion that Rotella oils are not a wise choice, and has led Larry to the opinion that he expressed below about Rotella oils.
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Nicely done!
STmark1300
Ron
The whole reason I bought the expensive Rotella was because it was SO GOOD. But if there is doubt about it now, I will probably get something different.
Doubt in someone else's mind? Or yours?
Nothing said here has changed my mind on using it.
Chris
Nothing said here has changed my mind on using it.
Chris
So the fact they removed the gasoline rating, and since doing so, there have been cases of slipping clutches in new bikes when the NEW version of Rotella is used isn’t a flag for you?
While I will continue to use HDEO in MY bike, I would not use or recommend the shell product anymore, nor anyone else’s if it didn’t have the gasoline rating on it, but that’s just me.
I probably change more oil on ST’s than most folks on the forum, and I’ve already seen 3-4 bikes have clutch issues with the new Rotella.
I personally won’t keep using something if I know it has changed, and problems are arising when using it, just because it used to be good etc. ymmv.
While I will continue to use HDEO in MY bike, I would not use or recommend the shell product anymore, nor anyone else’s if it didn’t have the gasoline rating on it, but that’s just me.
I probably change more oil on ST’s than most folks on the forum, and I’ve already seen 3-4 bikes have clutch issues with the new Rotella.
I personally won’t keep using something if I know it has changed, and problems are arising when using it, just because it used to be good etc. ymmv.
The only thing I've seen anyone lamenting over regarding Shell Rotella oil, is you can't find it without paying an exorbitant price.My point to Ron (STmark1300) is to ask if the doubt is his own doubt...or someone else's doubt. We should each get to read the advice we find on the forums and make our own decisions. In this case, my decision is to continue to use Shell Rotella T6 in a viscosity that is out of the range from the manufacturer. I could care less if it says "car" or "diesel" on the container. All I care about are the results. In my experience, it is working fine in both my BMW and my Subaru Outback turbo. Neither uses any oil. As long as it works, I'm not changing.
So there are some that say you'll destroy your engine by using Shell Rotella, and at least one person who says you won't. Now Ron (STmark1300) needs to decide for himself if he has his own doubts, or if he'll follow the doubts of others. Because the bottom line in any oil thread is no one agrees on everyone's choices.
Chris
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
@jfheath
John, the information on that website is not correct.
All JASO MA oil classifications are for engine oils for use in four-stroke motorcycle engines with wet-clutches, where the clutch operates in the same oil as the engine and transmission.
JASO MA was the first specification that JASO released for four-stroke motorcycle engine oils where the engine, transmission and clutch all share the same oil.
JASO MA was later divided in to two sub-categories to meet additional requirements.
JASO MA1 is for four-stroke motorcycle engine oil used in a combined engine/transmission/wet-clutch system sharing the same engine oil.
JASO MA2 is also intended for four-stroke motorcycle engine oil used in a combined engine/transmission/wet-clutch system sharing the same engine oil. It meets different friction test standards. It also is intended to better meet the requirements of motorcycles with more modern emissions systems.
JASO MB (not MA1) is the JASO classification for four-stroke motorcycle engine oil that has the lowest friction indices, meaning it is the most likely to cause clutch slippage when used in a wet-clutch application. It is intended for use where the clutch is not operated in oil, and does not share the engine oil with the transmission and engine, such as Harley-Davidson, BMW, etc.. This is the main differentiating criteria between MA & MB, wet-clutch vs dry-clutch operation. It has nothing to do with automatic transmissions such as are found in scooters as that website states.
Notice the ZINC numbers....
1121 in the normal automobile oil, and 1802 in the motorcycle oil.
The Zinc is what protects the metal to metal contact, which is why it probably holds up, and lasts longer than the watered down automobile oil due to the oil being run through our transmissions etc.
1121 in the normal automobile oil, and 1802 in the motorcycle oil.
The Zinc is what protects the metal to metal contact, which is why it probably holds up, and lasts longer than the watered down automobile oil due to the oil being run through our transmissions etc.
I suggest to anyone who wants to know about a particular oil to get a VOA done rather than ask for opinions. It is obvious from the Mobil 1 10W40 Auto oil VOA that it will not cause clutch problems but the lower zinc levels could cause more wear or shorter oil life. Of the Motul, Valvoline and Mobil oils listed the Mobil 4T is clearly the best for motorcycle engines.
I've used QuickSilver before, MA2 certified, and will give that a try on my next oil change after and run out of my case of Yamalube I had for the Tracer.
Considering this,,, instead of a fresh pail of t4. Works out to about $7.cdn per Liter. But I would have to have it shipped to my US address (for free),,, instead of my Canadian home address ($453. shipping). Ebay shipping calculators are rubbish,,,, CAt'
Ultra1Plus 10W-40 Full Synthetic 4T Motorcycle Oil API SN JASO MA2 (5 Gal Pail) | eBay
Specialty friction modifiers provide for smooth clutch and gear shift operation while specialty anti-oxidants and sophisticated dispersant technology provide enhanced cleanliness. Ultra1Plus™ Full Synthetic Engine Oils 4T (Four-Stroke) are highly shear stable therefore eliminating viscosity...
www.ebay.com