My maintenance and upgrades

Igofar

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Your perch wear does not look that bad, your lever, replace.
You have the new parts....
Grow a pair, grab the boot with some needle nose pliers and pull it out ! :rofl1:
The only thing holding it in place is a hard rubber rim.
 
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Your perch wear does not look that bad, your lever, replace.
You have the new parts....
Grow a pair, grab the boot with some needle nose pliers and pull it out !
The only thing holding it in place is a hard rubber rim.
I'm glad Larry Whogoesfar isn't my dentist :eek:.
Glad to see you posting again squire. We missed ya.
Upt'North :hat3:.
 

STRider

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If you care to attempt an 'upgrade' to your clutch lever, consider an adjustable one from a similar vintage CBR / VFR instead of the stock one.

I did on both my 1100 and 1300.

This was the title for the listing I purchased from. It's a non-OEM replacement, but fits perfectly.
HONDA CBR1000RR 2004-2007 VFR 800 1200 F Clutch Lever , replace 53180-MEJ-305

FYI...

BTW @Gus1300, thanks for starting and continuing this thread. These and others are a treasure trove of information for those of us tearing into our bikes for the first time (at least on the 1300 for me).

Tom
 

Igofar

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If you care to attempt an 'upgrade' to your clutch lever, consider an adjustable one from a similar vintage CBR / VFR instead of the stock one.

I did on both my 1100 and 1300.

This was the title for the listing I purchased from. It's a non-OEM replacement, but fits perfectly.
HONDA CBR1000RR 2004-2007 VFR 800 1200 F Clutch Lever , replace 53180-MEJ-305

FYI...

BTW @Gus1300, thanks for starting and continuing this thread. These and others are a treasure trove of information for those of us tearing into our bikes for the first time (at least on the 1300 for me).

Tom
While a lot of folks purchased the CBR1000RR clutch lever(s), and they do fit, they are not without issues of their own ;)
Because they can be adjusted closer to the grips, folks claim small hands and move the lever to the closest position etc.
In doing so, they often find they are not compressing the clutch plates all the way and get poor shifting etc.
When the GL1800's first came out, everyone was complaining about the transmission and shifting issues.
Every person that rode in complaining about how poorly they shifted, was amazed when nothing more than moving the lever to the furthest position corrected the problem.
Honda designed the ST lever for our bikes, to have the best leverage, pull, and clutch engagement (remember these bikes were also designed for police use).
They could have very easily put an adjustable clutch lever on just like the brake side if they thought it was needed....why do you think they didn't do that :rolleyes:
:WCP1:
 

Sadlsor

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They could have very easily put an adjustable clutch lever on just like the brake side if they thought it was needed....why do you think they didn't do that :rolleyes:
:WCP1:
For the same reason they deemed it appropriate to move mufflers in order to remove the axle? :rofl1:
 

dduelin

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Full travel “to the bar grip” of the stock clutch lever is not usually needed to smoothly shift gears on most any bike. For starting and stopping full clutch travel is necessary for certain but not for other gears. Good riders know it and Honda's DCT and quick shifters like BMW’s ProShift Assist prove it in application. A quick partial pull on the lever combined with preload on the shift lever is all that is necessary.

The only issue I have seen using aftermarket levers is that some of them can introduce clutch or brake interlock problems if the lever’s travel or pivot design doesn’t fully depress or release the clutch or brake switches.
 
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STRider

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Honda designed the ST lever for our bikes, to have the best leverage, pull, and clutch engagement (remember these bikes were also designed for police use).
They could have very easily put an adjustable clutch lever on just like the brake side if they thought it was needed....why do you think they didn't do that :rolleyes:
:WCP1:
Larry, here you and I are going to have to disagree. Honda put that lever on the ST for one reason and one reason alone - cost.
The CBR and VFR got adjustable levers because Honda saw customers in that market who were more discerning and critical of the nuances of controls adjustment - and were willing to pay for it as well as give Honda a bullet on the spec sheet for prospective customers.

I am a Honda fan-boy - their engineering and designs scratch my itch better than their competitors - but they're far from perfect, and I've got a file drawer full of the things that Honda engineers and designers got wrong on the vehicles I've owned.

Yeah, if you factor in the specifics of the ST's clutch master/slave cylinder's ratios, clutch pushrod and lever travel, there may be a position which negatively affects the clutch disengagement. Okay, don't use that position. Just the same way I can loosen the bar clamps on my 1100 and bind the cables or run them into the fairing or tank. The user still has to use common sense.

Aftermarket levers can introduce clutch or brake interlock problems if the lever’s travel doesn’t fully depress or release the switches.
And yes, an aftermarket part may perform worse than OEM in some, or even many, circumstances. I'm a big boy and am smart enough to decide when and where aftermarket will work for me. Otherwise, everyone go out their bike and remove anything that isn't OEM. Oh, wait, that ain't gonna happen! :)
 

dduelin

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.......And yes, an aftermarket part may perform worse than OEM in some, or even many, circumstances. I'm a big boy and am smart enough to decide when and where aftermarket will work for me. Otherwise, everyone go out their bike and remove anything that isn't OEM. Oh, wait, that ain't gonna happen! :)
Sorry I wasn't more clear, there was no intent to criticize choice of lever. Rather I meant the only problems I have heard using aftermarket levers on any bike was due to the lever/micro switch interface. I'll edit my earlier post to clarify. Thanks!
 

Igofar

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The CBR lever is $31.77, while the ST lever is $17.31, I'm not sure that less than $15 dollars would be considered a cost issue :rolleyes:
As far as aftermarket (non-oem) stuff, several I've seen and been asked to replace often caused issues with the clutch switch not working properly, or the bushing not pivoting correctly.
Since I leave my levers on the #1 position, which provide ME with the best ergo fit on MY bike, I could claim cost an issue by wasting $15 dollars for a lever that just looks the same as the brake side :rofl1:
I'd rather spend that money on fuel, and riding.
 
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Gus1300

Gus1300

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Finally had the time to do as Igofar suggested and 'grew a pair.' I initially tried putting the plunger back onto the boot but figured as long as I had a new one, might as well pull it out and replace it. Plus I thought it would be easier to put it on the plunger first, then insert it into the cylinder. While I was at it, I decided to replace the guts as well:

PXL_20210713_021041665.jpg

Had a bit of a challenge with the snap ring but got it out, and the seal that went on the piston didn't look like it would go on from either end, but finally did. Reinstalled the old handle with the new bushing (I know, I know...but I will keep an eye on the bushing wear and wanted to get it back on the road), dropped the lower left heat shield to get to the bleed valve and it appeared everything bled just fine. Was a bit concerning when the first pull didn't do anything at the handle, but by the third time I refilled the reservoir and closed the bleeder, everything tightened right up. Installed a new battery and took it for a shakedown ride before closing shop for the night. Should be ready to go tomorrow.

I still have an intermittent issue with the starter not wanting to engage without being in neutral; that started happening last fall and is likely one of the switches in the 'permission' chain. Plan to get to that and give the brakes a good cleaning, i.e. tear down the calipers and pistons completely, this winter once it gets colder. After reading about all the locking up issues people are having, I need to give everything a good once over; haven't done that since I bought the bike. I have a new SMC on the shelf (ordered one while they were still available) just in case but I think mine is working fine, even after all these years. <knock on wood>

Only another couple thousand miles to my 100K award...
 

Igofar

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Here is a rusted, frozen solid SMC that only has 40k miles on it.
Your fail to start issue is probably your clutch cut off switch.
If your "old" bushing or lever has any sideways or up and down play it it, that could cause your switch to no engage correctly etc.
Don't put old parts back on the bike your trying to fix.
My suggestion would be stop throwing solutions at the problems and wasting money, and find the cause etc.
 

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Gus1300

Gus1300

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Time to update this thread as I am continuing to have 'pressure increase' problems at the clutch lever.

History:

Last year stranded after the master cylinder rebuild and slave cylinder replacement when the hydraulic pressure increased to the point that the clutch was not engaging; spent the night trying to get a tow when all I had to do at the time but didn't realize it was pop the banjo bolt at the master cylinder and ride on with maybe another instance or two to get the bike to work and home vs spend the night on the interstate. Not fun. Attempted to resolve but another couple test rides revealed the same thing happening (but noticed closer and turned around earlier) so the bike sat all winter after the roads were too bad to test ride anymore.

Sun night I pulled the master cylinder apart again to verify the small port ahead of the large port in the bottom of the reservoir was clear (my assumption was either the seal wasn't clearing the port and letting the clutch pressure release, or the port itself was clogged and wasn't letting the fluid return to the reservoir under pressure.

Checked that the parts appeared to be in the correct order (replaced the new exterior boot with the saved old one because the new one had torn and was leaking still, although I'm not sure why fluid would be escaping from the new seal/piston), but while bleeding the system, the lever behaved strangely. It wouldn't 'firm up' when the bleed valve was tightened and although clear fluid was passed through and I thought all air was gone, with the bleed closed, the lever had zero resistance all the way to the grip as if the system wasn't closed at all. I didn't notice any fluid being pumped overboard from a blown line anywhere, but didn't have the plastic off either, so maybe it's pooled somewhere inside the plastic? Eventually the lever provided resistance close to the handle, then after several cycles the pressure point migrated to where it would start a further distance from the handlebar, as if the pressure was again increasing similar to the issue last year.

I intend to take the bike out tomorrow (and bring a 12mm wrench/rags/etc to release the pressure if it remains so I can get back home) and see what it does but can't think of a way there would be any pressure building internally through the slave cylinder, and there doesn't appear to be any contamination (oil would be the only possibility?) of the clutch fluid while bleeding.

Open to ideas as to why after messing with the master cylinder piston to resolve the initial leak, the pressure still builds given 1) the small hole is clear (but I don't see fluid spurting with the small cover removed like I think I had in the past, on either the brake side or the clutch side) and 2) the piston seal clears the hole when the lever is pulled (no fluid escaping and I can hear the secondary cylinder actuating with the bike off and shift through gears up and down with the bike on the center stand) and 3) the seal clears the hole when the lever is released. But pressure builds to the point there eventually is no play in the lever at all at the fully released end of travel (instant resistance when pulled toward the handlebar) and eventually the clutch disengages entirely until the banjo bolt is loosened to relieve the pressure.

Hopefully someone out there has an idea of what else to look for! (thanks in advance) I'd like to get to my 100k mile award soon...planned to do it last year when I was only about 2k away but never made it last fall.
 

jfheath

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This can be caused by the piston push rod being 'too long'. It partially depresses the clutch master piston which blocks off the compensation port. As the fluid heats up and expands there is nowhere for it to go except to press in the clutch slave - causing the clutch to slip. I'm not saying that this is your issue, but it is a distinct possibility.
My brand new 1300 was delivered with the last fault in the list below.

Reasons for this that I have seen.

  • After market push rod is slightly too long
  • Grit - muck at either end of the push rod - but probably in the hole in the brass ferrule in the clutch lever.
  • I have just noticed - the push rod is 'handed' - so is it inserted the correct way round ? I don't know if it is possible to get this wrong or not.
  • The push rod is not seated in the hole in the side of the brass ferrule, instead it is pressing on the side of it.


1647421082268.png1647421180205.png

The last one is the most likely cause and it is also the cheapest to fix.
Remove the lock bolt from the clutch lever, remove the pivot bolt and take off the lever.
Catch the brass ferrule before it drops on the floor.



Find the hole that is in the side of the ferrule. Make sure that there isn't any debris in the bottom of it. Cotton buds or something similar.
Get a black felt pen and mark the top circle with an arrow pointing in the direction of the hole.
Reposition the ferrule in the lever with the arrow on the top surface. Offer up the lever to the bracket and to the plunger. Rotate the ferrule so that the arrow is pointing at the plunger.
Put the lever into position and make sure that the plunger goes into the hole.
Insert the pivot bolt and secure it. Check that there is free play in the lever before you feel pressure from the fluid. If there isn't, do that last bit again.
Secure the pivot bolt with the locknut.
 
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Gus1300

Gus1300

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Thanks John,

Pretty sure the plunger is oriented correctly (flat side toward the piston, rounded side toward the ferrule) [this description is of a completely incorrect/backwards orientation, the flat end goes toward the lever/inside the brass bushing and the round end goes toward the reservoir/inside the piston], new ferrule (earlier post showed the old one as being totally worn through), and plunger fully seated. Also piston assembly inserted properly (flat side against cup/spring). Honda parts for all the replacements as well, so shouldn't be a fitment problem but I still have the old piston so can check it against that if I have to pull it apart again. They looked identical when I first pulled the old one and compared before replacing it and the seal. I agree with your line of thinking (that the port isn't being 'revealed' after pulling in the clutch lever and releasing it again) and when doing 'dry runs,' I couldn't see the squirt of fluid (I believe caused by the increase in pressure prior to closing off the port?) that would possibly verify operation like I thought I had before so opened up the brake side and did the same thing for comparison and also couldn't detect anything returning from under the small metal cover. Why else would there be a 'cover' on the small ports if not to keep them from squirting fluid when it 'opens' up again and the fluid under pressure has an escape route?

Of note, I did get a few air bubbles from the larger hold (boot side of the main seal) but that may have been because the other boot had a hole in it? Picture below shows the hole clear (and I was able to get a VERY small diameter wire strand through to verify and clear any internal surface debris); the brown is from a long time ago when the fluid wasn't serviced properly and shouldn't be related to the current condition as there have been many miles since and the problem didn't develop until I took it apart the first time to fix the leak (that was likely because the ferrule had worn all the way through and the piston was being allowed to go too far).

PXL_20220313_224755564.jpg(small metal cap removed for clarity)

Didn't make it out for the test run today but should be on tap to tomorrow. Appreciate the help!
 
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Gus1300

Gus1300

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When I left work last night there was a voicemail, text, and PM here; John was right, Larry's PM said simply, 'Call me.' Will provide the details soon but my 'assumptions' were not correct despite all evidence to the contrary. Test ride to the store and back for provisions displayed no tendency to increase in pressure.
 

Sidekick

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If you care to attempt an 'upgrade' to your clutch lever, consider an adjustable one from a similar vintage CBR / VFR instead of the stock one.

I did on both my 1100 and 1300.

This was the title for the listing I purchased from. It's a non-OEM replacement, but fits perfectly.
HONDA CBR1000RR 2004-2007 VFR 800 1200 F Clutch Lever , replace 53180-MEJ-305

FYI...

BTW @Gus1300, thanks for starting and continuing this thread. These and others are a treasure trove of information for those of us tearing into our bikes for the first time (at least on the 1300 for me).

Tom
Just ordered it and I got a old stock on Amazon for $16, feeling lucky!
Thank you for the upgrade info, not being able to adjust the lever was always a frustration.
 
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Gus1300

Gus1300

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Wanted to take the time to correct some of the above information, with enough detail that those who may not be familiar with the clutch piston assembly can avoid the same (silly?) mistake I made! John's third bullet in post #35 hit it on the nose. I'm not sure what part of the push rod ('04 P/N 22884-MB0-006) indicated that to him, but it is indeed 'handed' or indexed, both by the rounded end being different than the flat end, but also as shown in the photos below, the rounded end is a larger diameter (0.206") than the flat end (0.192"). In addition, the pin length with the flat end is approximately 0.65", while the length with the round end is that long just to the start of the rounded portion, so is slightly longer to the tip. Both boot seal shoulders are the same width but because of the difference in the end lengths, the different orientations would place the boot seal a bit closer or further from the larger diameter shoulder inside the master cylinder or not let the large diameter end seat fully against the snap ring. I'm not sure what difference that would make but perhaps it affects the flexing of the boot over time?

plunger length difference (L round end / R flat end); doesn't appear to be significant
PXL_20220317_051806130.jpgPXL_20220317_051842629.jpg

bushing seat difference (L round end / R flat end); definitely is significant!
PXL_20220317_051903378.jpgPXL_20220317_052119394.jpg

plunger diameter (L round end / R flat end); slightly different
PXL_20220321_015054546.jpgPXL_20220321_015338038.jpgPXL_20220321_015242125~2.jpg

More importantly, the clutch lever bushing is not large enough to let it fully seat onto the rounded end; it only seats partially the distance it does on the square end, thus increasing the overall length of the bush/push rod/piston assembly if installed backwards. Interestingly enough, I felt this when pushing the entire assembly (rounded end into the bushing) in far enough to insert the clutch lever pivot bolt but it didn't register at the time. Doing so with the extra length due to the plunger not seating fully into the bushing pushes the primary cup (on the end of the spring) past the compensation port (the small hole) in the master cylinder floor. You will notice this by there not being a 'spurt' of fluid in the first bit of travel when pulling in the clutch lever. It was there before but it wasn't there after reassembly. Those two things should have given enough of a clue as to the incorrect orientation. The other indication was the increasing pressure in the clutch system due to the compensation port not being able to provide any relief to the point where all play was lost in the clutch lever and eventually the slave cylinder pushed the clutch rod in far enough that the plates just spun against each other vs providing any drive force.

External boot, properly installed toward rounded end to fit inside clutch master cylinder. There isn't a groove (that I could detect) and instead the large diameter ring is just solid enough to be an interference fit against the large outer master cylinder bore.
PXL_20220317_055221349.jpg

The snap ring looks like it's not fully seated, but every time I put it in, it looked the same. As you can see from the picture of just the ring itself, the width is not the same across the entire ring but is wider opposite the opening. Taking that into account for the difference compared to outer edge of the the piston core in the end-on photo, and the fact that pushing it in further against the washer/piston didn't make it seat any deeper, I assume that it's fully seated and looks like the photos below. Larry also pointed out that they also have an orientation. The flat side should be seated opposite any pressure to eliminate potential for the rounded side to collapse the ring under pressure and let it unseat reference the mating groove. With the flat side, there is no shoulder to work against and the entire surface mates with the flat machined groove.

PXL_20220317_053019864.jpgPXL_20220317_052711175.jpgPXL_20220317_054510384.jpgPXL_20220317_054936716.jpg

All that to say, that had I just paid attention to the last two photos in post #18 that shows prior to disassembly to fix the leak, the squared end should go into the clutch lever brass bushing and the rounded end goes into the master cylinder/piston or test fit the brass bushing onto each end of the plunger to see if they both fit the same, or...well, you get the point.

Thanks to John and Larry (and everyone else) for not calling me out as the obvious 'poor' mechanic and instead just helping me/us work through the problem systematically and logically. If only I'd applied that in the first place!

Ride safe everyone!
 

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