Rotella T6

[ASPC]

SN exceeds the requirements of SM.

Explanation of JASO T903.

https://360.lubrizol.com/2023/JASO-T903-2023-Motorcycle-Specification-Is-Here

 

[Andrew Shadow]

A subsequent API rating always exceeds the previous one (most of the time), that is the way that their rating system works. These requirements are developed for automobile engine oils however, so this does not necessarily mean it is automatically an acceptable option for JASO MA requirements as JASO does tend to exclude many sub-categories, which is what I was wondering about.

 

[Daboo]

I just changed my 390,010 mile ST1300 oil a couple weeks ago. Anyone care to guess what oil has been run through my bike for the last 389,000 miles?

I used to do QA certifications and I know how much of a joke you can buy with some certification dollars . I’m going to say that if the label says it will meet JASO then it probably will.

As far as new vs old formulations 60,000 miles of new formula T6 has been used in the last 2 years

And the original clutch, gears, water pump, about everything is still in the bike.

Later, I learned arguing about Rotella T6 oil years ago is futile. No offense to anyone else’s opinions. Run what you like but there is no reason to keep pointing out there is no fancy paid for cert on the bottle.

Truth be known, a lot folks here and on other forums still use T6 oil. Y’all keep on doing what your “certified” lawyer advises.

I've been using Rotella T6 5W-40 on two Suzuki's, one Honda and now a BMW that has over 106,000 miles on it. Like he wrote above, if it says it will meet the JASO certs, then it probably will. If it didn't, I think you'd have heard about it more than just in this forum. My BMW at 106K still does not use any oil between changes. It's not like it uses oil and by the time the level is down enough to add more, it is time to change it. It simply doesn't use any. And I've never had a clutch issue.

With a track record like that, I'm not about to change to something else.

BTW, I buy my T6 at Home Depot. And then I get a 10% Military Discount on the purchase.

Chris

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Shell Rotella T6 is certified for API service catagory SN

Point of reference for clarity.
It is not certified API service catagory SN any more than it is certified JASO MA. API has certified it as CK-4 only.

Do you really think that Shell would put that on their containers and supply the same information in writing if it wasn't true knowing they could get sued?

It would not be overly difficult to believe given that they have done something similar in the past with fuel additives that were harmful to fuel systems. They denied it until the law suits started.

 

[ASPC]

Point of reference for clarity.
It is not certified API service catagory SN any more than it is certified JASO MA. API has certified it as CK-4 only.

It would not be overly difficult to believe given that they have done something similar in the past with fuel additives that were harmful to fuel systems. They denied it until the law suits started.

I checked the API list and you are correct in that these grades of T6 are not certified SN. But they meet the requirements to be just as they meet the requirements for JASO.

 

[core-aggie]

I finished the popcorn and going to sleep, like this thread should

 

[jswartz]

Without hi-jacking this useful post, I will add a couple comments about the 5w40 vs the 15w40 that I have found that some of you may find interesting....
This "test" (not scientific at all) was done on at least three different times, with the same results, draw your own conclusions.
Two 2016 test bikes (New in crate bikes) were used for this test.
One bike was filled with the 5w40 T6, and the other with the 15w40 version, both ridden about 4k miles, and both placed out of service for an oil change.
The oil was drained out of both bikes completely, including the oil filters, and the drain plugs were put back in the bikes, the keys removed, and the bikes sat for 3 weeks.
At the end of 3 weeks, the drain plugs (remember the bikes had no oil in them) were removed again, and the residual oil measured.
The bike with the 15w40 weight oil drained approximately 2-3 ounces of oil, however, the bike with the 5w40 weight oil spilled oil all over the table lift, and we got about 8 ounces or more of oil out of it when the drain plug was removed.
So what does this prove? Maybe nothing, or, maybe the 5 weight fish oil drains off the top end of the motor when it returns to 5 weight oil again, and allows the engine to be started without proper lubrication?
For those folks in the camp of "the thinner oil flows faster through the engine", "I've seen the youtube videos", will say it does not matter because the oil will get back up there when the bike is started faster than the thicker oil, however, they cannot defend that the engines will not have dry start up wear and issues, unless they tear the engines down to examine them etc.
Taking this theory to the next level, on the engines that have been torn down, I've seen more wear on the engines with the lighter weight oil than the standard weight oils recommended.
I've also found that the engines with the 5w40 oil in them were almost dry upon teardown, where as the 15w40 oil engines still had oil lurking around, and the engine appeared to be well lubricated preventing start up damage etc.
These observations may mean absolutely nothing, but I just thought I'd post them here to give some folks things to consider.

 

[jswartz]

Great write ups!
Just back from Onstoc + NNESTOC, 3 yrs using T6 - this time it felt like oil had left the crankcase. Poor shifting, clunkier noisier, some vibration, less fluid or smooth. Rode hard, but the ST needs love. Oil shows at proper level, gears feel a bit gravelly, a bit of vibe engaging torque/power and in 5th at 4000 rpm
Will change out to the 15 wt. Fingers crossed that's the issue. Any thoughts, please share.

 

[Daboo]

A question for you experts. While I'm thinking in terms of Shell Rotella, it really is a generic oil question.

What is the difference --- after the engine is warmed up between 5W-40 and 15W-40?

@jswartz mentioned, the "feel" of his engine and gearbox seems off. Now that can be simply that we tend to look for problems once our attention is turned to them, and forget that the bike always felt that way before. If there's no difference after the warm up in the oil...changing to 15W weight oil would logically make no difference.

 

[Dale_I]

The first number is the low temperature number. The viscosity modifiers are added to increase the viscosity with temperature. This higher (hot) number will be the more variable parameter and if the modifiers drop out you lose the thicker viscosity. You have a 5w oil with modifiers to 40w and a 15w with modifiers to 40w.

But, to answer your question, there shouldn't be any with new oil. As it breaks down, the 5W oil will obviously go below the 15w rating. Per breakdown percentage the 5w oil will also measure at a lower high temp rating at whatever breakdown percentage you are at.

This debate probably centers more around the friction modifiers and how they are interacting with our clutch packs. At the time these bikes were built, these new generation of friction modifiers had not been developed.

(Missed you at NEWSTOC. JRob and I had breakfast at Totem's last month. Didn't know we were so close to you)

 

[Larry Fine]

A multi-viscosity oil actually just varies less with temperature changes. For example, a 10W-40 oil has the viscosity of a straight 10-weight oil at 0 deg. C, and that of a straight 40-weight oil at 100 deg. C.

Thus it flows easily like a thin oil when cold for better lubrication at start-up, yet doesn't thin out as much as a straight-weight oil would for better protection as the engine reaches operating temperatures.

You wouldn't need a 5W (W = winter) oil unless you regularly start your engine in arctic conditions. It's likely too thin to protect well at start-up in moderate climates.

 

[ASPC]

 

[ASPC]

 

[Daboo]

Thanks for the charts and comments. They help a lot in answering my question. I confess to knowing the answer before asking the question, but I was hoping to get some others to think of what the answer was.

Igofar and I had a short PM session on the subject. I appreciate his comments a lot, especially since he is supposed to be off the forum to prep for his surgery. I don't remember what it was for, but I'll be praying for you sir.

In order to get an oil to have a different viscosity when cold than when hot, an additive package is added to the base oil. The farther apart the numbers, the less stable the oil is. (If you want more details than that, you'll have to look them up yourself.) My point in my PM with Igofar was that at the warm temperature when the viscosity is at 40 weight...one oil should be the same as another...or close enough that you and I can't tell the difference.

We "think" we feel a difference...but unless it is really a lot of a difference, I believe it is more that we are looking for a difference and finally notice what had been there all along. And when we change to another oil or whatever, we attribute the "improvement" based on our subjective feelings because, well, none of us believe we are wrong. I think if you felt a difference, it would probably be like changing from Castrol to Pennzoil in the same weight.


This has probably nothing to do with the subject of using Shell Rotella oil. I wish it was still on the Internet, but the Paradise Garage did an oil study of Mobil 1 and Amsoil in their Camaro years ago. They did not "change" the oil (just the filter) and would top it off as needed. You can read into that whatever you'd like. The point is that both oils were not changed till the viscosity fell in the oil analysis, and that didn't occur till around the 18-20,000 miles point. You could say one oil is better than another, but their study proved that they really weren't that far apart. Especially since many people are changing their oil at 3-5000 miles.



I'll leave you with two thoughts.

First, we get so wrapped up in what oil to use on our motorcycles...but we generally don't on our cars. If we don't change our car's oil ourselves, we take whatever the Jiffy Lube place puts in and never give it a second thought. And yet our cars last for a long long time. Like several hundred thousand miles.

On the other hand, I remember a rider on another forum who was ecstatic that he had reached the lofty goal of 10,000 miles in 10 years. One thousand miles a year. Less than I do a month.

I just did a quick search on Cycle Trader of ST1300s for sale. Here's what I found with the initial listings. Only one ST has "significant" mileage (88K) ...yet the average per year is less than 5000 miles. Are these "Sport Touring" bikes? Or garage queens. Based on those first few that I looked at, I'd say they were garage queens.



And the owners probably change the oil in them every Fall before storing them for the winter.

My lawnmower gets more use than the first 2012 has. And I don't fret about what oil I put in it at all. (No, it doesn't have a wet clutch. I get it.)

I suggest we all find a local STOC gettogether and drink our favorite beverage in honor of all the time wasted discussing which oil to use. BTW, I use Shell Rotella T6 in my hair. It gives it an incredible shine. Kind of a slick, no friction look.

Chris

 

[Upt' North]

Daboo, wise words.
I won't comment further because there's no point. It'll only prolong the agony.
We haven't even reached oil thread season yet!
It's going to be a long Rotella infused winter.
Pffffffftttttt.
Upt.