Valve Clearance Inspection - R. side Cams not right?????

[Mellow]

Using Mark's article here, you should see a couple pic (just like one he posted above) of the cams in position as well as removed from the bike so you can see if they 'look' okay on their own.

Once you get it all where you think it should line up... DO NOT put it in gear and use the rear wheel to turn the engine, put it in neutral and use the recommended procedure.. the wheel adds a lot of leverage and if anything is 'touching' you could bend a valve even easier - I knew a guy with a valkyrie that did that.

 

[STranger]

I would assume that would be needed as well however it may be possible that there would be a weak mixture of fuel that exists for ignition...depending...if it's exactly 180 degrees it would fire down the exhaust pipe or try to ignite the fuel rail if the spark wires were not moved. What kind of gas mileage were you getting Jeff. Did you notice fuel odor any knocking excessive heat building etc. I know about the issue with it cutting out when it was hot if the bike was carbed if the cams were set wrong it would run like this at 180 like it was only hitting strong on 2 cylinders.. But I would also wonder how the ecu would handle this situation (esp cold). Would it go to fail safe and dump enough fuel to run this thing or retard the timing enough to allow it to run? Not sure I'm just one of those carb lovers.....

edit some quick typers got me......again. As scooter points out the spark fires the entire side so you would never notice.

 

[okmurdog]

With L-IN and L-EX on the outboard side of the sprocket the the lobes on my bike are in the same position as the lobes in your picture; which is correct for checking the clearances for cylinder #1. My problem is that when my sprockets/lobes look like that, in sequence, I should have cylinder #3 lined up not Cylinder #1.

If that is the case, the bike came from the factory that way. The cams on the left side have only been off once, and we didn't take the sprockets off.

Forgive me, as I am reading this literally (maybe missing something) - I am confused regarding your response. Obtain #2 cylinder TDC (T2 aligned, R-EX & R-IN outboard on right side of bike), turn crank 270? CCW to obtain T1 - at this point, #1 cylinder should be at TDC (L-IN & L-EX outboard). My question - are the camshaft lobes in the correct position at this point (disregarding the markings on the sprockets)?

I haven't worked out the SIN(x) equation to calculate the sinusoidal pattern that would be obtained if indeed the cam shaft was out by 180?, although my gut is telling me it would not have worked without a valve coming in contact with a piston.

FYI - both plugs are fired simultaneously (#1 & #3)...so if by chance the camshaft is indeed out by 180 degrees - I guess it's somewhat possible the engine would have run, although I think something would have been amiss performance wise.

 

[STranger]

A couple of folks have asked how the bike ran after the 3/09 valve clearance inspection (the inspection in which the left cams were removed). The bike ran fine, except for the loss of power/surging issue when really hot outside .. which others are dealing with also (regardless, that issue didn't develop until much later). I have always felt that my bike is a bit noisier and had less power than other ST-1300, but that is very subjective, so I don't know. I've never ridden another ST-1300 to compare it to. Also, as of the the 3/09 valve adjustment I had only had the bike for a couple of months .. so I didn't have the best reference point for comparing pre/post valve inspection.

MPG was typically ~36 - 38 in the city and ~42 on the highway in California.

Jeff I would imagine the loss of power is correct....I'm not sure how the cam grind would effect the power when you change the firing order. However since you get full spark regardless of the cylinder it shows your on tdc compression stroke on three....assuming 1 is on top of the exhaust stroke is the piston at the top on one????...since the valves are controlled by the cams......flip them 180 and it will now be tdc 1 in theory........well in my mind......not sure how the injectors play to this. But t would put it back to the correct firing order....

 

[1129VLD]

Forgive me, as I am reading this literally (maybe missing something) - I am confused regarding your response. Obtain #2 cylinder TDC (T2 aligned, R-EX & R-IN outboard on right side of bike), turn crank 270? CCW to obtain T1 - at this point, #1 cylinder should be at TDC (L-IN & L-EX outboard). My question - are the camshaft lobes in the correct position at this point (disregarding the markings on the sprockets)?

No, at this point the camshaft lobes are just touching the edge of the buckets for Cylinder #1 and are up and pointed away from the buckets in cylinder #3.

I haven't worked out the SIN(x) equation to calculate the sinusoidal pattern that would be obtained if indeed the cam shaft was out by 180?, although my gut is telling me it would not have worked without a valve coming in contact with a piston.

I've been thinking about this. If the cams are exactly 180 degrees out of rotation the valve would not contact a piston because is still opening on the compression and exhaust stroke, just in the wrong order.

 

[okmurdog]

No, at this point the camshaft lobes are just touching the edge of the buckets for Cylinder #1 and are up and pointed away from the buckets in cylinder #3.

I've been thinking about this. If the cams are exactly 180 degrees out of rotation the valve would not contact a piston because is still opening on the compression and exhaust stroke, just in the wrong order.

Wow, I would not have thought it was possible this motor would be tolerant of that condition (physically)...not to mention the performance aspect.

If you're not already sick of messing with it - it really doesn't take long to pull the cams. Would be quite quick in your case, since you don't have to pull the buckets & shims.

Anytime I am into something like this (changing something around that has been wrong a long time), I double and triple check everything (just to be sure). I would definitely take photos...just in case.

 

[STranger]

I've been thinking about this. If the cams are exactly 180 degrees out of rotation the valve would not contact a piston because is still opening on the compression and exhaust stroke, just in the wrong order.

That's my thought too. So 3 is firing on the power stroke instead of 1. Since the spark fires regardless....

 

[rglgatortail]

Look go back to post number 31 and look at that picture of the cam shafts and look at the cam sprockets. The sprockets are showing for cylinder #1 L-IN and L-EX on the outboard of the sprocket and im willing to bet that T1 should be in your window now staying on that side of the motor just rotate the crank 360 degrees and that will be #3 up on the compression stroke but this time the L-IN AND L-EX will be lined up on the inboard of the cam sprockets still suppose to show T1. T1 mark is for cylinders 1 and 3 and depending on which one is on compression stroke is where the L-IN AND L-EX is either on the inboard or outboard of the cam sprockets. So to sum it up cyl #1 will have the L-IN AND L-EX on the outboard of the sprocket and #3 the L-IN AND L-EX will be on the inboard of the cam sprocket lined up with the cylinder head. T2 cylinder #4 is will have inboard markings and cylinder #2 will have outboard markings.

 

[rglgatortail]

Your first post you are asking for cylinder #4 and your post is showing the cam sprockets so i am will to say that you are not showing the correct picture and or you are showing the wrong side for T2 for either cylinder 2 or 4. You really need to study the pictures in that valve clearance worksheet and report back.

 

[1129VLD]

So if your picture from your first post is accurate showing T2 and showing for inboard markings for cylinder #4 then I will be safe to say that yes your cams on that side are in deed out of timing from T2 like you have been saying for awhile and I think the pictures are showing maybe two teeth off, I hope im wrong with that but yeah im willing to say that you are having cam timing issues. I really hope that you dont have any valve or piston damage.....

Those pictures do represent cylinder #4, but markings you see inboard are for the left side of the bike. The R-EX and R-IN are on the outside of the sprockets (can't see it in the picture) indicating that the cams are set up to check cylinder #2.

I no longer think there is anything wrong with the right side of the bike, it's the left side that is off 180 degrees.

 

[1129VLD]

Look go back to post number 31 and look at that picture of the cam shafts and look at the cam sprockets. The sprockets are showing for cylinder #1 L-IN and L-EX on the outboard of the sprocket and im willing to bet that T1 should be in your window now staying on that side of the motor just rotate the crank 360 degrees and that will be #3 up on the compression stroke but this time the L-IN AND L-EX will be lined up on the inboard of the cam sprockets still suppose to show T1. T1 mark is for cylinders 1 and 3 and depending on which one is on compression stroke is where the L-IN AND L-EX is either on the inboard or outboard of the cam sprockets. So to sum it up cyl #1 will have the L-IN AND L-EX on the outboard of the sprocket and #3 the L-IN AND L-EX will be on the inboard of the cam sprocket lined up with the cylinder head. T2 cylinder #4 is will have inboard markings and cylinder #2 will have outboard markings.

Exactly, but that is not what is happening with my bike.

 

[970mike]

I just left Jeff's house and it does look like the left cams on 180 degrees off.

 

[STranger]

I just left Jeff's house and it does look like the left cams on 180 degrees off.

You guys put em back the right way??

 

[970mike]

You guys put em back the right way??

Jeff had some honey dos to take care of tonight with Marie. He said that it will happen soon.

 

[STranger]

Well......with a wife as good as his it would be a hard choice.

Thanks for the update Mike!!!

 

[Scooter]

I might have tried aligning the cams by rotating the crankshaft as described in the manual the first time I tried it but I really don't remember. Usually, as I mentioned twice already : I just align the camshafts to the required positions as shown in the manual and go from there. The nice thing about doing it this way is that you don't need to look at the T mark at all, and you know that you will be on the compression stroke simply because I assume that the cam sprockets are correctly positioned on the cams.

I was going to put this off until next spring but since it has been over 20K miles since I did the last check I thought I'd dive in to see how mine worked...

I can confirm that I was able to follow the procedure as outlined in the manual to rotate the crankshaft CCW as needed to get all four of the cam positions to line up as shown. I took a series of pictures showing the position of the cams for both the right and left sides of the engine for each cylinder tested:

No. 1 TDC: Right Bank No.1 TDC: Left Bank



No. 4 TDC: Right Bank No.4 TDC: Left Bank



No. 3 TDC: Right Bank No.3 TDC: Left Bank



No. 2 TDC: Right Bank No.2 TDC: Left Bank



So after looking at my valves I can say that one pair of your valves is rotated 180 degrees out of phase as has already been mentioned. In your case, you suspect the left side because that side was worked on back in 2009. Theoretically, due to the symmetry of this engine design, you could have the same mixup done on the right hand bank and you would observe the exact same symptoms that you currently see. The true timing generation is performed by the cam position sensor which is located on the right intake cam IIRC.

After looking in the manual I saw that the pulse generator ring is keyed so that item cannot be mistimed. The other interesting thing I noted was that positions of the cam sprockets on the bank opposite the cylinder being tested, were not as shown in the diagram in this post, i.e. testing No.1 cylinder by aligning the left bank cams but looking to see what position the cams on the right bank look like. The diagram shows positions for both cylinder No1 and No2 TDC. You will note that in both cases, the cams on the opposite bank are 180 degrees out of phase with that shown... (certainly seems like a documentation error to me)
.
I guess I'm still at somewhat of a loss as to how your bike has performed since you had the shims replaced in 2009. Having the cams off by 180 degrees obviously doesn't damage them physically when the engine rotates but the problem I see you having is that the engine is going to be injecting fuel into two of your four cylinders right when the exhaust valve is opening. It is possible that part of the air/fuel mixture might remain in the cylinder after that and since your going to get spark on both cylinders, you might get some power out of that bad side.

Is the exhaust (catalytic converter) pipe discolored on one side? I would think that you are dumping a lot of unburned fuel into that exhaust on the bad side. Do you have any popping sound coming from the exhaust?

It would be interesting to hear how your engine runs in person. Keep us posted on your progress...

 

[okmurdog]

One more thing I thought of late last night is to make sure #1 cylinder piston is indeed at TDC by pulling the plug and physically inspecting - just to rule out an undocumented maintenance event occuring on the right side of the bike. Scooter also mentions this possibility in his post.

Since you are using #2 TDC as the starting reference, pull the plug on #2 cylinder and take a look at the position of the piston. Now turn the crank to get to #1 cylinder TDC and take a look at the piston position. Use a depth micrometer if you have one. Both pistons should be about the same place in the cylinder. This should serve as one way to double check the cams are indeed out by 180? on the left side.

 

[Scooter]

One more thing I thought of late last night is to make sure #1 cylinder piston is indeed at TDC by pulling the plug and physically inspecting - just to rule out an undocumented maintenance event occuring on the right side of the bike. Scooter also mentions this possibility in his post.

Since you are using #2 TDC as the starting reference, pull the plug on #2 cylinder and take a look at the position of the piston. Now turn the crank to get to #1 cylinder TDC and take a look at the piston position. Use a depth micrometer if you have one. Both pistons should be about the same place in the cylinder. This should serve as one way to double check the cams are indeed out by 180? on the left side.

Mark, I don't think this is required since if you verify that the T marker (pulse generator) is lined up (T1 - 1,3: T2 - 2,4), you have to be at TDC in those cylinders. There is a nice picture of the insides of the motor showing the pulse generator here.

 

[okmurdog]

Mark, I don't think this is required since if you verify that the T marker (pulse generator) is lined up (T1 - 1,3: T2 - 2,4), you have to be at TDC in those cylinders. There is a nice picture of the insides of the motor showing the pulse generator here.

Yes, good pic.

Hmmm...from the way I understand it, the T1 or T2 and the position of the indexes on the camshaft sprockets together determine which cylinder is at TDC - this methodology is used to initially establish the reference in the Service Manual (#1 cylinder at TDC). Every 360? the T1 mark will appear, and either the #1 cylinder is at TDC or the #3 cylinder is at TDC. How do you know which cylinder is at TDC (#1 or #3) using the T1 mark by itself?

It is my understanding that the right side is assumed to be correct due to no documentation of the cams ever being pulled, and therefore, the right side is being used as a reference. However, if the camshafts were out by 180? on the right side, and the right side was used to establish #2 TDC (as a starting point), and then rotate the crank 270? CCW to get to what should be #1 TDC - it would then appear that the left side cams were off by 180?.

 

[Scooter]

Hmmm...from the way I understand it, the T1 or T2 and the position of the indexes on the camshaft sprockets together determine which cylinder is at TDC - this methodology is used to initially establish the reference in the Service Manual (#1 cylinder at TDC). Every 360? the T1 mark will appear, and either the #1 cylinder is at TDC or the #3 cylinder is at TDC. How do you know which cylinder is at TDC (#1 or #3) using the T1 mark by itself?

If you look at a picture of the crankshaft below you will see that both cylinders on each side are at TDC at the same time. One will be in the compression stroke and the other one will be in the exhaust stroke. Which one will be which is totally dependent on how the camshafts are setup. To me, the most confusing statement in the manual is the following: "Make sure that the No. 1 piston is at TDC (Top Dead Center) on the compression stroke." How do you really make that test? The only way I know how is to look at the position of the lobes on the cam.

It is my understanding that the right side is assumed to be correct due to no documentation of the cams ever being pulled, and therefore, the right side is being used as a reference. However, if the camshafts were out by 180? on the right side, and the right side was used to establish #2 TDC (as a starting point), and then rotate the crank 270? CCW to get to what should be #1 TDC - it would then appear that the left side cams were off by 180?.

The interesting thing about this engine design is that the ECU always references the Camshaft Position Sensor on the right side of the engine. So it doesn't matter if you made this mistake on either the left bank or the right bank, the left side will be the side that doesn't run correctly.