okmurdog
Will Ride for Pie
Ahhh....I see (said the blind man). I didn't take the time to look at the crank whereby the answer becomes intuitively obvious! Good point regarding the statement in the Service Manual - I was thinking the same thing.
Valve Clearance Inspection - R. side Cams not right?????
- Thread starter 1129VLD
- Start date
Ahhh....I see (said the blind man). I didn't take the time to look at the crank whereby the answer becomes intuitively obvious! Good point regarding the statement in the Service Manual - I was thinking the same thing.
We have not heard from you so what is the out come of your perdicament?
OP
OP
1129VLD
"71David5"
Thanks for asking.
I'm still pressing on with a couple of other things I need to get done on the bike, then I'll rotate the cams on the left side, put her back together and see what happens. Maybe another two weeks.
wjbertrand
Ventura Highway
Jeff, when you replaced your clutch is it possible the T1, T2 indicator was reinstalled incorrectly? Was that done since the last documented valve shim change? Not even sure if it had to be removed for a clutch job, but the thought crosses my mind.
Scooter
This space for rent...
I was having breakfast with kirbic this morning and I brought up this topic with him and I mentioned my hangup with the fueling issue. He just casually asks if it has throttle body injection and I said yes and he said there's your answer. Turns out he's right. In this case, the fuel for cylinders 1 and 3 are pulsed into the TB's at the appropriate moment but in both cases the intake valve isn't opened yet. So the fuel mixture sits down in the space provided by the cylinder head and the TB until it is drawn into the cylinder when the valve does finally open up. Since the spark plugs always fire on both the compression and exhaust cycles there is spark available to ignite this mixture even though it is 180 degrees out of phase.
So it turns out that you have the only 1300 engine that is curently running with a firing order of 1-2-3-4 instead of the standard 1-4-3-2. I suspect that you might be losing a few HP due to the fact that the fuel won't be swirling into the combustion chamber like it is supposed to on those left two cylinders. Just put the cams back like they are supposed to and you will be good to go.
So it turns out that you have the only 1300 engine that is curently running with a firing order of 1-2-3-4 instead of the standard 1-4-3-2. I suspect that you might be losing a few HP due to the fact that the fuel won't be swirling into the combustion chamber like it is supposed to on those left two cylinders. Just put the cams back like they are supposed to and you will be good to go.
Gus1300
Site Supporter
replying only because i've not dealt with shims/cam/timing on my bike so far and this seems to be a fairly complex item, i wanted to be able to track what is finally found as the 'problem'. thanks to everyone for the information, definitely a good ref if/when i do finally tackle this beast phase of the ongoing mx! on the other hand, took my '04 off the blocks after sitting since mid-April and she fired right up n down the road i went...totally dependable so far.
BakerBoy
It's all small stuff.
Well that would explain it (that the injectors fire early). Either that or the #2 and #4 injector wires are crossed-connected.
I'm reading this thread after a long day in the garage working on my 16k service (2009A). I ran into what sounds like a similar predicament. I followed the service manual instructions several times, but the lobes and sprocket indicators didn't jibe with each other. So, after several attempts and still getting the same erroneous results - definition of insanity and not ever ruling out pilot error, I decided to take the advice of another post on the forum and used the sprocket positions as guides, seeing I was only measuring and not doing any major surgery. Everything looked good.
HondaDave
David Hamlin
BakerBoy, Can you tell us the page number for the cam sprocket to cam procedure in the manual. I don't see it.
Also, I don't see the procedure for the cam pulse rotor alignment procedure, have you found that also, I haven't.
Also, I don't see the procedure for the cam pulse rotor alignment procedure, have you found that also, I haven't.
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BakerBoy
It's all small stuff.
David, I'm away from home and don't have the manual with me. If memory serves, there is only one alignment possible for the T1-T2 timing ring (but I stand to be corrected by the many others who can answer that sooner than me). Also, perhaps someone else can post the service manual pages that provides the information on proper alignment.
HondaDave
David Hamlin
Interesting thread. A few thoughts.
Pages 3-10 and 8-4 show clearly the procedures for setting the orientation of the cam sprockets to the crankshaft.
Some basics
1) The crankshaft pulse generator is splined and can only go on ONE way onto the crankshaft [see page 9-25, top picture]. It can not be placed out of orientation during a clutch job (theoretically).
2) There is only (1) T1 and only (1) T2 mark on the crankshaft pulse generator.
3) When you are at T1 the crankshaft is positioned at top dead center for the left bank of cylinders #1 and #3. Since the ST1300 is a 90 degree V-4, moving the crankshaft 90 degrees CCW (looking at the front of the motor) will orient the crankshaft at top dead center for the right bank of cylinders #2 and #4. The orientation of the cams alone determine if the engine is on the compression stroke or exhaust stroke.
4) Pending checking the details of the orientation and/or indexing procedures of the cam sprockets to the cams and the procedures of the orientation of the cam pulse rotor on the cam and checking this, simply following the diagram for timing the cams on pages 3-10 and 3-11 should eliminate your issue of timing the cams.
5) Checking the parts diagrams, the cam sprockets have one part number and are interchangable, so if the sprockets were removed from the camshafts, no need to worry about an interchange error (intake vs. exhaust) on the sprockets to cams.
6) If the cam sprockets were removed that will have to be sorted out, however, it may just be that the cam sprokets (with the cams) were placed out of time during some procedure in the past.
What I would do at this point would be to follow and correct the orientation of the cams following the procedure detailed on pages 3-10 and 3-11 of the manual, moving the cams on the cam chain to achieve alignment, check camshaft alignment (i.e., cam lobes in correct orientation, so for cylinder #1 at TDC at T1 lobes should be pointing up and away from opening the valve), move thru the timing sequence. Rotate the engine by hand to see that there is no interfefence.
If the lobes appear out of orientation during timing, attempt to find the page in the manual that details the indexing of cams.
a few thoughs..
Pages 3-10 and 8-4 show clearly the procedures for setting the orientation of the cam sprockets to the crankshaft.
Some basics
1) The crankshaft pulse generator is splined and can only go on ONE way onto the crankshaft [see page 9-25, top picture]. It can not be placed out of orientation during a clutch job (theoretically).
2) There is only (1) T1 and only (1) T2 mark on the crankshaft pulse generator.
3) When you are at T1 the crankshaft is positioned at top dead center for the left bank of cylinders #1 and #3. Since the ST1300 is a 90 degree V-4, moving the crankshaft 90 degrees CCW (looking at the front of the motor) will orient the crankshaft at top dead center for the right bank of cylinders #2 and #4. The orientation of the cams alone determine if the engine is on the compression stroke or exhaust stroke.
4) Pending checking the details of the orientation and/or indexing procedures of the cam sprockets to the cams and the procedures of the orientation of the cam pulse rotor on the cam and checking this, simply following the diagram for timing the cams on pages 3-10 and 3-11 should eliminate your issue of timing the cams.
5) Checking the parts diagrams, the cam sprockets have one part number and are interchangable, so if the sprockets were removed from the camshafts, no need to worry about an interchange error (intake vs. exhaust) on the sprockets to cams.
6) If the cam sprockets were removed that will have to be sorted out, however, it may just be that the cam sprokets (with the cams) were placed out of time during some procedure in the past.
What I would do at this point would be to follow and correct the orientation of the cams following the procedure detailed on pages 3-10 and 3-11 of the manual, moving the cams on the cam chain to achieve alignment, check camshaft alignment (i.e., cam lobes in correct orientation, so for cylinder #1 at TDC at T1 lobes should be pointing up and away from opening the valve), move thru the timing sequence. Rotate the engine by hand to see that there is no interfefence.
If the lobes appear out of orientation during timing, attempt to find the page in the manual that details the indexing of cams.
a few thoughs..
Attachments
Scooter
This space for rent...
There doesn't appear to be any procedure in the manual for installation/ alignment of the cam sprockets to the cams in the event that they are removed. I don't know why anyone would want to remove the sprockets off of the camshafts to begin with unless there was damage to the sprocket.
HondaDave
David Hamlin
I haven't found the procedures either in the manual, for the cam sprockets or the cam pulse rotor. It is likely that they only go on one way like the crank pulse generator.
BakerBoy
It's all small stuff.
I forgot about this until a few minutes ago...
As I look over my pictures and Scooters images in post 56 above (our pictures show exactly the same alignment) and also from images the manual, it is apparent that the cam sprockets can be rotated and installed at either of two positions, 180?apart from each other, onto each cam shaft. There appears no keyway by anything I can see to keep the sprockets from being installed in the incorrect position.
There's really no reason for anyone to remove remove the sprockets from the cams unless they've had to replace the sprockets or cams at some point. But the service manual on 8-9 does speak to removing the sprockets from the cam shafts. As I read through the manual, I also did not find any information which describes proper alignment of the cam sprockets to the cam shafts, so it seems Honda missed this important point.
However, close inspection of the manaul images, my pictures, and Scooter's pics reveals an alignment mark: there's a tell-tale chamfer on the front of the camshaft. That chamfar aligns with the forward cylinder's cam lobes and I suspect it is used during the factory grinding of the cam lobes. What I see from my pictures, Scooters pictures above, and the images in the service manual is that the chamfer is in alignment with the forward cylinder lobes, for both the inlet and exhaust cams, both sides of the engine. As such, these pictures (or Scooters pictures) above provide photo-ducumentation of the correct cam sprocket alignment on the cams.
.
In these pictures, the arrows show the alignment of the chamfer on the front of the camshaft with the forward cylinder's cam lobes. So, you can easily tell if the cam sprockets are correctly aligned.
Notice that on all 4 cams, the chamfer is halfway between the R-EX and R-IN lines (and opposite the 'MCS' label) on every one if the 4 cam sprockets.
Regarding the possibility of the T1-T2 pulse rotor ring being installed incorrectly... it can only be installed one way. See the top picture on p.9-25
Hope this helps.
HondaDave
David Hamlin
Nicely put. How about the orientation of the CAM pulse rotor? See attached Honda parts diagram part #4 the manual does not even talk about it as far as I can tell. From the picture if the cam sprockets were removed from the cams then it is possible if one was not careful, it could be mounted 180 degrees out.
Attachments
A naive question perhaps (and I apologize if it was already asked 5 times but I never found it.) Could it simply be that the two cams were swapped? Is that even possible? I don't mean swapped out for new ones. I mean were the cams put in the wrong holders to begin with?
BakerBoy
It's all small stuff.
Good question David... I have no information that helps. I'll try to take a picture next time I see one. I do notice though that there are gold-colored bolts on that cam (and that it uses different bolts), however I doubt the bolts would preclude someone from installing that pulse rotor off by 180?.
I'm still puzzled by the conspicuous lack of information in the service manual about the alignment of the cams/sprockets (and cam pulse rotor).
Scooter
This space for rent...
I suppose it might be possible if the camshaft journals were the same diameter on both the intake and exhaust cams which I suspect they are. Honda does cast identification marks on each camshaft so you don't make this mistake because if you were to do this you most likely will bend the valves the first time that you crank the engine over.
I have both exhaust and intake cams out of my Vstrom right now and they appear identical. I thought this seemed ripe for an accidental switch so I made sure to keep them clearly identified for installation. Swapping the cams is the only way I could think of to make the marks on the cam gear reversed, yet still have a running motor.