What are the odds?

Great points contrasting your lack of experience with the mechanics lack of motivation on a particular job. Either one can create problems for you. Also you're right about this dealership. If they're willing to re-do the job with you standing there watching them that's a really good sign for them.

Hopefully all the valves are within tolerance and he did the mechanical part of the job properly he just didn't document it as well as he should have.

Good luck! And of course learn all you can while watching and maybe you'll be able to do it yourself next time...
 
barto said:
And of course learn all you can while watching and maybe you'll be able to do it yourself next time...
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Excellent point. I will take in as much as they'll allow. And next time I think I will try this myself.

We have a Tech Day in North GA in October...I'm hoping someone will need this done and will let me assist.
 
bobframe said:
I'm hoping someone will need this done and will let me assist.
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That is exactly how I learned. I went to a tech day in NJ and assisted in a valve clearance inspection - bike had 90,000+ miles. Of course, I did a lot of preparation prior by reading the service manual, postings on this website, and watching a video for a valve clearance inspection on a ST1100 (the ST1300 videos weren't out at that time, but they are now!).

Since then I've done a few on my own. It is fairly easy and I have found it to be a process that just takes time.
 
If you're going to do this yourself, do yourself a favor and buy a set of metric feeler gauges. Why? The shims are marked in mm, and using metric gauges means you don't have to do conversions between inches and mm when you need to change shims. The more match you have to do the greater the chance of making a mistake.
 
There is a notable difference between tight and loose when using feeler gauges. If .010" will not pass at all that is pretty self evident but a "loose" .009 feeler indicates the clearance is closer to .00975 than it is .00925 and so on. If .010 will not pass and .009 has little drag when passing I record the clearance as .009+. Over time and several checks I have seen .009+ go to .009- so even though I did not know the intermediate clearances between .009 and .010 historically I could see the valve was tightening. Eventually that valve went under .009 to .008+ which I knew was .00875 or thereabouts and out of spec.
 
Haven't done this myself yet but plan to as the bike turned over 50K miles this morning on the way to work (although only about 28K are actually mine). Will be following this thread to see how the 'verification' goes at the dealer and what you find. Good info, thanks.
 
dduelin said:
There is a notable difference between tight and loose when using feeler gauges. If .010" will not pass at all that is pretty self evident but a "loose" .009 feeler indicates the clearance is closer to .00975 than it is .00925 and so on. If .010 will not pass and .009 has little drag when passing I record the clearance as .009+. Over time and several checks I have seen .009+ go to .009- so even though I did not know the intermediate clearances between .009 and .010 historically I could see the valve was tightening. Eventually that valve went under .009 to .008+ which I knew was .00875 or thereabouts and out of spec.
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I'm curious about the science here.

1. I assume the clearances only go in one direction, i/e., they only tighten? Or, do they also loosen?

2. What is actually going on within the valve system that is causing the clearance to tighten? Or loosen?

3. Some valve clearances change with mileage and others don't...is this true? If so, why is that? Are all of the valve clearances identical when the bike is new?

4. Do some clearances tighten (or loosen) and then stop moving? Sup with that?
 
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Bob you are more forgiving than I would be. I agree that in your case having the dealer do the work would be best. For me, no. I would do it myself. I also agree that the dealer did the work. In my opinion, which I only have my experiences with this dealer, they did not follow your strict directions. Which is strike one. Then when you ask for the measurements, they lie to cover their buts. Which is strike two. I am again willing to bet that all clearances will not match that sheet. That should be strike three. I also am willing to bet that they only checked one side. It was within spec, and assumed the other side was too. The techs get paid by the job. The quicker he can get your bike in n out, the more he gets paid. Not a good thing for you.
While you are watching, look for signs that one side has been taken apart, but not the other. Like the gasket for the valve cover being stuck, and hard to remove. While the other side is easy to remove. Or sealant being on one side but not the other. One side having grease marks, or hand prints, but not the other. That sorta thing.
 
Michael,

I understand your points and they are fair.

However, I want to have a dealer I can work with (even though I will make an effort to learn to do some things on my own) and the key to this is having a good relationship with the service manager. In all fairness, the service manager was (unfortunately) not at the dealership when I dropped the bike (and my instructions) off or when I picked it up, so I want to give him a chance to do the right thing.

I have found that sometimes you have to "train" people on how they need to work with you and I view this as my "dealer training" program. They are absolutely on thin ice at this point and I won't tolerate even a little screw up.

Your suggestions on what to look for is helpful...will be on the lookout for that kind of stuff. If there's evidence that this was fraud and not a mis-communication, we're done. After I take a huge, steaming cr#p on the owner's desk. And demand a refund.

BTW, if the measurements are dramatically different than the spec, I will view this as fraud and will raise h3ll with them.
 
bobframe said:
I'm curious about the science here.

1. I assume the clearances only go in one direction, i/e., they only tighten? Or, do they also loosen?

2. What is actually going on within the valve system that is causing the clearance to tighten? Or loosen?

3. Some valve clearances change with mileage and others don't...is this true? If so, why is that? Are all of the valve clearances identical when the bike is new?

4. Do some clearances tighten (or loosen) and then stop moving? Sup with that?
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First of all I am not a trained mechanic or engineer. My dad was a mechanic and and I learned a lot from him as he maintained our cars and later his and my motorcycles and sailboat engines.

1. My experience is that valve clearances tighten over time and do not loosen. If they change at all of course. Some remain stable between service intervals at least to the time or mileage I owned them.

2. The seating surface, the valve seat, the valve must meet thousands of times a minute gradually wears and the valve gradually seats deeper into the cylinder head. This introduces less clearance between the valve stem and the mechanism above it that opens and closes the valve. The valve face that meets the valve seat can also wear or get hammered thinner around the edges.

3. I do not know why but yes some valve clearances will remain stable or move less than others in the same engine. This might be from variations in metallurgy of the parts involved or localized temperature or oiling variations that influence wear. With today's very tight manufacturing tolerances and precise assembly procedures I suppose it might be possible an engine starts out with all valves at the same clearances but more likely there is some differences greater than .0005".

4. It is said that most of the changes occur in the first service interval but I don't know why or if that is true. I believe the practice of regular checks is to establish a baseline so wear patterns can be established and monitored as mileage or hours of service pile up.
 
I bent some guages to do the ST13. Like dduelin said previous, mark 'em down tight or loose. Exhaust valves are the most likely to burn. More heat. Make sure the inspection port indicators match the cam gears. Screw adjustments like I've had in the V-twins are way easier to adjust. I've not had to do the ST but it looks like a job. To adjust, not check. Tighten the valve covers! I didn't tighten the valve cover on the rear cylinder of the Aero once. Yup. It leaked oil when I ran it! Big time. Pretty blue smoke. LOL
 
Britman said:
Here's a web site to calculate needed shim sizes.

Just use the form multiple times to get readings for the ST

http://klr650.carguy.org/shims.html
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Using this chart is not wrong and by all means use it if you want. But it kind of makes the job much more complicated than it needs to be. If your clearance is too tight just put in the next smaller HONDA shim as they come in .001 increments. If the measurement is loose, put in the next bigger shim.
HotCams for instance come in .002 increments so be sure what steps are taken with the shims you use.
 
dduelin said:
First of all I am not a trained mechanic or engineer. My dad was a mechanic and and I learned a lot from him as he maintained our cars and later his and my motorcycles and sailboat engines.

1. My experience is that valve clearances tighten over time and do not loosen. If they change at all of course. Some remain stable between service intervals at least to the time or mileage I owned them.

2. The seating surface, the valve seat, the valve must meet thousands of times a minute gradually wears and the valve gradually seats deeper into the cylinder head. This introduces less clearance between the valve stem and the mechanism above it that opens and closes the valve. The valve face that meets the valve seat can also wear or get hammered thinner around the edges.

3. I do not know why but yes some valve clearances will remain stable or move less than others in the same engine. This might be from variations in metallurgy of the parts involved or localized temperature or oiling variations that influence wear. With today's very tight manufacturing tolerances and precise assembly procedures I suppose it might be possible an engine starts out with all valves at the same clearances but more likely there is some differences greater than .0005".

4. It is said that most of the changes occur in the first service interval but I don't know why or if that is true. I believe the practice of regular checks is to establish a baseline so wear patterns can be established and monitored as mileage or hours of service pile up.
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Dave, this was a very helpful answer to my questions. Thanks!!

Bob
 
I returned to the dealership this morning and was invited back to the shop once the tech had the plastic stripped and the valve covers off. He patiently repeated each clearance check, valve by valve, demonstrating the shim that fit, the shim that was too loose and the shim that was too tight.

I was delighted to see that, as he had reported following my initial service, every valve clearance was on spec. There were a couple of them that were, for example, a "tight .0010" " or a "loose .0010", but in none of the cases were we able to take a measurement at the upper or lower limit of the spec range. The tech was more than accommodating, showed me zero attitude and was happy to field my questions, show me how its done and let me try my hand at taking several measurements.

In spite of my "interference", the entire job (including the plastic removal and reinstallation) took under 3 hours. I'd say a good mechanic would have had it done in 2-2.5 hours. They bill 4 hours for the job, so there's a ton of profit margin in it for them...no surprise, eh? Still, I don't begrudge them making money- it's what America is all about.

I wish that there had not been the drama over the measurements as it now seems clear that the tech did what he said he did. I think it was a communication problem...one that they surely have to take the blame for. At the end of the day, I think the dealership retains it's integrity (at least with me) and I think the service manager and I have a pretty good understanding with each other...which was one of my objectives.
 
Excellent!.. I'm not sure all dealers would be so accommodating but glad you feel better about doing business with them.
 
The Cheese said:
Good to hear. So what was the final numbers?
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All of the intake valve clearances were .006" and all of the exhaust clearances were .0010" (with one being a bit tight and one being a bit loose, but not enough to be considered .009" or .011")
 
I would say the dealer did everything they could to retain your business. Bravo. Well played on your part. It's easy to blow a fuse and get nowhere and nothing to show for it.
 
bobframe said:
All of the intake valve clearances were .006" and all of the exhaust clearances were .0010" (with one being a bit tight and one being a bit loose, but not enough to be considered .009" or .011")
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I'm amazed! Not with the measurements...but with YOU! You showed admirable patience, understanding, balance and comprehension! <I find I need these attributes in my friends, so..you're on my list, hopefully I'll meet you one day!>

You sir, are a great representative of ST owners & fellow riders. I commend you.
 
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