Spline Grease

I used Honda 60 Moly paste on my splines and had just about zero signs of wear where bike sold at 138,000 km. I think the number of non moly paste issues people have had has been reasonably well documented here. Doesn't mean that someone, somewhere might not use the right product and get away with it for a time. Everything looks and runs OK until it is doesn't.

In this case how many mile does ASPC have on his ST? Did he own it from new? if not, did the PO use the proper moly? Too many unknowns in my mind. If ASPC is committed to using this grease and saving $20 vs. moly then give us updates with proper pictures (showing the splines cleaned off and properly lit) once a year or so.
 
9000 miles with one application of lube is a good test of the grease mentioned. It's difficult to argue differently.
I used Loctite because I didn't want to risk failure and others had found it acceptable but the results here seem to show that there's more than one way to skin a cat. I have no reason to doubt the findings of the OP.
I think some here seem to be being a little hard on ASPC, didn't all recommendations come from posters trying something different and finding it works, then in turn that being adopted by others.
FWIW.
Upt'North.
 
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Always interesting. There is a "repair manual mafia" that exists, I'm not one of them. Read up on the Waddington Effect, Reliability Centered Maintenance, and the shift to on condition maintenance instead of time or fixed interval directed. The OP is not a newbie asking what lube to use. Honda can't even get that right since they don't even source the "correct" stuff anymore and recommend something said to be inferior. The OP is making a choice, based on his own reasons. I see no reason to pillory the man.
 
Some interesting facts related to this. I've not written this for about 5 years, so its about time it got an airing.

The Honda spec states a Moly Paste with >40% MoS2
Their first recommendation is for Dow Corning G-n Paste which has only 15-20% MoS2. Not easily available now.
Honda Moly 60 was the preferred option - but it is suspected that this was re-badged G-n Paste, and is no longer produced (see above).

M77 was originally Molykote M77 from Dow Corning. This is stated as being suitable for low to moderate loads and low speeds. It has a Silicone base.

Dow Corning told me that their Molykote M77 paste is Silicone Based and was not suitable for high pressure situations and that ..."Mainly, mineral based oil products like G-n Plus are used for the situations that I described for the final drive of the ST1300". Other versions of M77 are available. M77 is not a registered trade mark of Dow Corning / Dupont. 'Molykote' is.

I have seen a Honda document that states that M77 can be used when the manual asks for Moly 60 - but the document that I have seen was written for the car workshops where Moly 60 is used on the disk pad backing plates. I have never seen it written as a subsitute for the high pressure environment of the rear splines.

It occurs to me that the 40% Molybdenum Disulphide requirement may be a catch-all, a safe layman's criterion, for people looking for a substitute. This may well have been the case when it was written. But that was before the silicone based M-77 product came out.

I contacted Honda UK 5 years ago about this to see what they use on the drive splines. It was interesting that they do not say that they use M77 ! This was the e-mailed reply from Honda Customer Service at Honda UK.

I did some research on your enquiry and also checked with our technical department to see what they would recommend. What we are currently using in our dealerships for such cases, as an alternative to the Honda Moly 60 paste, is the "Motul tech grease 300" and our technicians advised that it should be appropriate for your ST1300 Pan European.​
​
Motul Tech Grease 300 is designed for a high pressure environment, but contains zero Molybdenum Disulphide.

I noted that the reply from Honda did not refer to the drive splines, even though that is what my email asked for. It seemed odd to me - why miss out such a vital piece of information?? I also noted that the reply came from info.uk.car@honda-eu.com which raises another doubt as to whether or not my question was understood.

So Instead, I went for the Rocol ASP - which is still produced by Rocol, under a new name Dry Moly Paste. They say this is NGLI 3 consistency, but it feels just like the Moly 60 which is NLGI 2. The Rocol has 50% MoS2

But I have noted that the Loctite LB8012 / 51048 Moly Paste seems to be equally up to the job - from comparing the spec sheets and hearing from other members of this forum.
Likewise the T70 mentioned above.

Your Sta-Lube stuff may be up to the job. It is speciifed for Extrem Pressures, has some MoS2 - although we don't know how much, it has the right consistency, But I don't know. And because I don't know, I go with the stuff that is still readily available, and is recommended by Honda. If Rocol wasn't so readily available in the UK, I'd be tempted by the Loctite.

You do well to do the research and ask the questions @ASPC. We have had many discussions on the forum about what is and is not suitable for the splines and many will yawn at me repeating some of it. But it is difficult to glean the accurate information from the snippets and misunderstandings that may have been obtained. eg like that reply from Honda UK. It seems to suggest that the Motul is OK, but they did not include my email in their reply, and they do not mention the application. So it may be suitable for the application on the drive splines, but their answer does not say that. It leaves me no wiser.

If you want the emails and data sheets that I kept from this research, I'll happily send them by PM. But this was 2017 - new products may now meet the requirements, but I believe that the latest shop manual still specify Honda Moly 60, and that has not been available for a good number of years. The info from Dow Corning was obtained over the phone. My only record of that is what I have posted on here in 2017. Someone posted the link above.
 
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rwthomas1 said:
Read up on the Waddington Effect, Reliability Centered Maintenance,
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I did and it is quite interesting. How would one apply this to lube on the splines? I realise it is an overly simplified question, but I tend to overthink things like this, and of course I have no way to monitor the lube itself in situ.
 
This smacks of the dearth of oil related failures in oil threads. There aren’t any no matter what oil people chose to use….. as long as it is decent oil that was changed when necessary.

Does anyone actually know anyone that irreparably damaged or wore out a spline set on a ST1300 because of the grease or paste used? Don’t include hearsay or ‘I read it somewhere” unless you know what lube was used and how it was maintained.
 
dduelin said:
Does anyone actually know anyone that irreparably damaged or wore out a spline set on a ST1300 because of the grease or paste used?
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Larry has posted in other threads that he has worked on bikes w/ ruined splines that had been lubed with grease (probably not EP) and contained no Moly Disulphide.
 
dduelin said:
This smacks of the dearth of oil related failures in oil threads. There aren’t any no matter what oil people chose to use….. as long as it is decent oil that was changed when necessary.

Does anyone actually know anyone that irreparably damaged or wore out a spline set on a ST1300 because of the grease or paste used? Don’t include hearsay or ‘I read it somewhere” unless you know what lube was used and how it was maintained.
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Yes.....ME. :rofl1:
And before you go off on your "unless you know how it was maintained speech", I know that as well.
I witnessed a spline plate installed (brand new) on a trade in ST1300, because the person buying the bike was worried about any prior damage etc.
The dealer put a brand new spline plate on the bike, (which I saw) and inspected the female splines (at this point there was still no damage) the service department then applied the Honda M77 Grease/Paste that the service department was then instructed to use at the time.
The bike only went a few hundred miles, and then was brought to me for a tire change.
At this point, I replaced the tire, and inspected the splines etc.
The Honda M77 had dried up, and turned into little balls, and was found rolling around inside the area, and the splines on both the male and female parts had severe shelving and damage on them at this point.
I also found that the Dealership failed to apply ANY type of moly paste to the inside (backside) of the spline plate, or replace the inner O-ring as instructed by the factory service manual etc.
The repair was very costly, and both the spline plate, as well as the spine housing needed to be replaced etc.
The ordeal was a lengthy battle with the dealership denying fault, and then blaming on being forced to use the wrong product on the splines by Honda etc.
I have also seen several others, that the owners purchased new, and while they used the correct Honda Moly 60, or Loctite stuff, no damage was ever noted on the spines at tire changes.
Then, when they started reading success stories from folks on the internet about using cheaper HP grease, they switched products, and I've seen more than a few damaged splines on these same original owner bikes.
 
With all the engineers we have contributing on this site, I have to wonder why one or more of them have not done some rough calculations to determine the spline loading, then check some lubricants' film strength and compare that to a moly paste. Surely this is not an insurmountable problem that only Honda's engineers can solve. Maybe we prefer to chew the fat to getting some real answers?
 
There can only be wear if there is metal to metal contact which could happen if the wrong type of grease is used, just like using the wrong type of engine oil.
 
If that were true, Honda would just recommend grease instead of paste ;)
Or like I tell my kids....don't believe everything you think :rofl1:
 
SMSW said:
With all the engineers we have contributing on this site, I have to wonder why one or more of them have not done some rough calculations to determine the spline loading, then check some lubricants' film strength and compare that to a moly paste. Surely this is not an insurmountable problem that only Honda's engineers can solve. Maybe we prefer to chew the fat to getting some real answers?
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I seem to recall this being done on one of the numerous previous threads on the topic. The bottom line is in the scheme of things typically greased, there really isn't that much force generated by a motorcycle final drive. Large trucks yes, motorcycles, no.

The difficulty we had with hard analysis of the contending products is the mfrs. are not consistent in providing the same values for things that can be measured. They don't often provide the exact moly content, they don't always provide the weld test values that describe the ultimate load the grease can handle, etc. So it wasn't easy to compare one grease to the next on paper. And the fling factor is a bit of a wild card because the grease consistency ratings are a bit vague.

I remember finding lots of high pressure grease that can easily handle the load, the question is will it stay applied where its put. I think the reality is as long as the grease doesn't fling off, for which paste consistency helps, any high pressure grease can easily handle the spline loads.
 
dwalby said:
I think the reality is as long as the grease doesn't fling off, for which paste consistency helps, any high pressure grease can easily handle the spline loads.
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There are a lot of stiff and sticky greases available. If that were the only criteria, why would Honda not have said something to the effect, 'use any grease that meets these industry specifications.....' I remember looking at a mfr's website for a HP grease and it's claim to fame was it's stickyness - as mentioned above in one of the posts. Surely that is a measurable property and the splines on an ST are not the only application needing a grease or lubricant that will not be thrown off while the shaft is spinning.
 
SMSW said:
There are a lot of stiff and sticky greases available. If that were the only criteria, why would Honda not have said something to the effect, 'use any grease that meets these industry specifications.....' I remember looking at a mfr's website for a HP grease and it's claim to fame was it's stickyness - as mentioned above in one of the posts. Surely that is a measurable property and the splines on an ST are not the only application needing a grease or lubricant that will not be thrown off while the shaft is spinning.
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they do actually, in the service manual they specify NLGI #2 or equivalent, and 40% moly content. What you'll find in the industry is non-paste is still considered NLGI #2, thus the confusion I mentioned earlier. And, the much maligned moly grease, also called out by Honda in the service manual, is similarly spec'd by Honda to be NLGI #2, so try to make sense of that one.

What you'll also find is very little info on actual moly content in product data sheets.

Honda doesn't recommend any particular product, they only call out a few "examples" of the above spec in the service manual.

Its time for me to leave this black hole before I get sucked in again, just not worth the time. I'm one of those who has never worried about my splines, and 25 years later have no reason to start now.
 
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SMSW said:
Larry has posted in other threads that he has worked on bikes w/ ruined splines that had been lubed with grease (probably not EP) and contained no Moly Disulphide.
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".......unless you know what lube was used and how it was maintained." Or so the story goes.

Without documented service history don't waste the time.
 
Grease is oil with "soaps" added to thicken the oil.
Moly paste is Molybdenum disulfide paste. Moly is more "metal" (similar to graphite) than oil and a "moly paste" mixture LOOKS like grease.

The friction coefficient of grease (oil) is way lower than moly and when the friction coefficient of grease is diminished from excess wear particles failure occurs. This happens suddenly when the wear particle amount reaches some point. At that point the friction coefficient of grease is rapidly exceeded and you have failure.

I have 2 ST1300 service manuals. Neither call for grease on the hub splines, both call for moly paste. Neither of mine call out a moly content level but I figure it's not a moly paste unless it's at least 50% moly. Less than 50% moly would be a grease with some moly.

Feel free to use what looks like moly paste all you want. I'll use something close to what belongs on the splines, moly paste, not grease. The crazy part of all this is the moly pastes aren't even expensive in use. A small amount lasts years...


splines1.jpg
 
This is grease. It also says it is suitable for low to moderate loads and low speeds. Unlike the grease I use which is suitable for high pressure loads and high speeds.

87F712F0-011E-4D7F-92F8-27C9B4806197.jpeg
 
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