Advice regarding ST1300 vs. R1200RT

[NobodySpecial]

Greetings!

I'm looking for some advice. I'm in the market for a new ride, and after test-riding a whole slew of things* I've narrowed it down to two motorcycles:
- an ST1300 (ABS)
- a "camhead" R1200RT

Now, I've bled Honda red for many years (more than 20), but after test riding a 2007 RT I came away impressed. Not perfect (power below 3000 is non-existent!), but it was very nice. I also test rode a 2004 ST1300 with some touring farkles added (bar risers + Russel day-long) and it was deceptively easy to handle. I've had mostly liter bikes, with one full-dress touring bike ('85 Venture Royale). I don't mind weight, but the ~170 pound difference between the ST and the RT was easy to notice. Due to an injury some years back, I haven't been able to tour (yet), but prior to that I had a few 10-12 hour days. I currently own a truly lovely 99 Triumph Trophy 900, but the triple's vibration causes me numbness and tingling (but comes with a beautiful engine note and incredibly tractable power). Having spent several hours on other, less aggressive Triumph triples, it's the engine, not the riding position.

I have a line on a 2010 RT (although it's *quite* far away from me) at a price comparable to what I see many ST's going for - ~$5500. I haven't been able to ride one of the new (now, previous generation) BMW "camhead" bikes; are they better down low than the prior generation? One thing I really noticed and appreciate about the ST vs the (2007) RT is that the ST will pull itself along at parking lot speeds without any real buck and snort. My carbuerated Trophy is the best bike I've ever been on for truly spot-on fueling, and all fuel-injected bikes feel notchy to me. I enjoy the low-speed parking lot gymnastics as much as the long-haul fun. Would the BMW drive me crazy? Would the weight of the ST?

I don't think many would deny the durability of the Honda over the BMW, but it's also long in the tooth and simply not as sophisticated (adjustable suspension, arguably the best cockpit in the business, cruise control, heated everything, etc..). Clearly, one can add most of that stuff to the ST as well and derive 90% of the benefit. However, I thought I'd ask in this subforum for advice and opinions. My budged has been limited by the CFO. I'm located in Southwest Wisconsin.

 

[dohboy]

My wife had a 2005 R1200RT and I had a 2006 ST1300 when she quit riding I had my choice of what bike to keep. I choose the ST because I preferred the motor. Two years later the ST is totaled, and I am getting the RT back from our daughter. I am looking forward to riding the RT again. According to the local BMW dealer the bike has been ridden at low RPM, (lugged) and has ruined the drive shaft. My wife or I never rode the bike under 3000 rpm and we had no problems. If you chose the RT the low power under 3000 rpm should not be a problem, because you shouldn't be riding it that slow. I can tell you more when I get back on the RT, in about another week. I am looking forward to the lighter weight bike. Waiting on a new drive shaft.

 

[acedantinne]

Greetings!

I'm looking for some advice. I'm in the market for a new ride, and after test-riding a whole slew of things* I've narrowed it down to two motorcycles:
- an ST1300 (ABS)
- a "camhead" R1200RT

Now, I've bled Honda red for many years (more than 20), but after test riding a 2007 RT I came away impressed. Not perfect (power below 3000 is non-existent!), but it was very nice. I also test rode a 2004 ST1300 with some touring farkles added (bar risers + Russel day-long) and it was deceptively easy to handle. I've had mostly liter bikes, with one full-dress touring bike ('85 Venture Royale). I don't mind weight, but the ~170 pound difference between the ST and the RT was easy to notice. Due to an injury some years back, I haven't been able to tour (yet), but prior to that I had a few 10-12 hour days. I currently own a truly lovely 99 Triumph Trophy 900, but the triple's vibration causes me numbness and tingling (but comes with a beautiful engine note and incredibly tractable power). Having spent several hours on other, less aggressive Triumph triples, it's the engine, not the riding position.

I have a line on a 2010 RT (although it's *quite* far away from me) at a price comparable to what I see many ST's going for - ~$5500. I haven't been able to ride one of the new (now, previous generation) BMW "camhead" bikes; are they better down low than the prior generation? One thing I really noticed and appreciate about the ST vs the (2007) RT is that the ST will pull itself along at parking lot speeds without any real buck and snort. My carbuerated Trophy is the best bike I've ever been on for truly spot-on fueling, and all fuel-injected bikes feel notchy to me. I enjoy the low-speed parking lot gymnastics as much as the long-haul fun. Would the BMW drive me crazy? Would the weight of the ST?

I don't think many would deny the durability of the Honda over the BMW, but it's also long in the tooth and simply not as sophisticated (adjustable suspension, arguably the best cockpit in the business, cruise control, heated everything, etc..). Clearly, one can add most of that stuff to the ST as well and derive 90% of the benefit. However, I thought I'd ask in this subforum for advice and opinions. My budged has been limited by the CFO. I'm located in Southwest Wisconsin.

Yamaha Tracer 900X=Did U look this 1 over?

 

[NobodySpecial]

Yamaha Tracer 900X=Did U look this 1 over?

Chain drive, 900 triple. I've got one of those! It's more modern and might be smoother, though.
No, it's not on the list.

Regarding the under-3,000 rpm stuff: I like to do that parking lot gymnastics type of stuff, but as I think about, how much time I spend doing *that* versus riding. If I kept the Triumph, I'd have the best of both worlds: one bike that's really fantastic around town for for back-roads scratching, and another that just gobbles up the miles. So, perhaps that changes the equation a bit! Which bike would you take for Long Ride (in 'bamarider' style) rides?

 

[Daboo]

I'll say this up front. I'm kinda prejudiced against BMWs, even though I own one. (You can see where this is going, if you're half-way smart. )

I've spent two years on the BMW MOA forum since buying mine. I wouldn't own any shaft driven BMW without an extended warranty. And I wouldn't feel comfortable taking one on a extended trip. A case in point was a member last summer who was looking for help and answers. (There weren't any.) He was from Texas and had three weeks vacation. He'd taken his R1200GS to Alaska and had the final drive fail without warning. There were two motorcycle mechanics in the "area"...and neither had the tools to replace his final drive. And even if they could...the parts were not in Alaska. I don't know if he sold the bike and flew out. Stored it till he could get a trailer and tow it out, or what. In any case, his dream vacation was ruined and he was out a lot of money, no matter what option he chose.

So this was on a R1200GS. It has the same engine and drive train as an RT. I wouldn't touch one.

I'll agree that an RT is far lighter than a ST. But as one BMW RT owner put it, having your final drive fail is part of the experience of owning a BMW. You should feel privileged to own one and to pay a highly trained BMW mechanic to work on your BMW. And if you can't afford that...you don't deserve to be a BMW owner.

I've owned a Honda with a shaft drive. They don't break unless someone forgets to lube the splines with moly. For some reason, BMW can't build a shaft driven bike with that reliability. And while some BMW owners will say that new BMW models don't have that problem...what change can anyone show that fixes the earlier design flaws? No one on the BMW MOA forum could identify it. I think as the mileage increases on the "wetheads", the failures will show up.

My BMW by the way, has a belt drive.

Chris

 

[jmcarruth]

BMWs were below HD in a Consumer Reports reliability comparison a few years ago. Honda’s just go.

 

[NobodySpecial]

I'm lucky enough to have had a bunch of bikes over the years. As a student with no money, I would buy some basket case of a bike for cheap, fix it up, ride the heck out of it, and move on. I've had an '83 Honda Nighthawk 550SC, a '91 Suzuki Katana 1100, an '85 Yamaha Venture Royale, a '96 Kawasaki GPz 1100, an '85 Honda Magna V30, an '81 Honda CB900C, an '89 (I think) Honda VTR 250, and now a '99 Triumph Trophy 900 which I loved so much I bought it back from the guy I sold it to. Of all of these bikes (quite a few Hondas), I learned some things:
- on paper, the GPz was perfect. However, it had no soul.
- the Venture Royale showed me a 750# full-dress touring bike could go like stink and handle far better than it should. If it weren't for the fact that all of the plastic was boogered up and it had been mis-maintained and abused by prior owners, I'd say it was the best bike I ever had.
- the Trophy never fails to put a smile on my face. If it weren't for the vibration and somewhat too-sporty ergos, it would be perfect.

However, the Trophy isn't what I want for mile-munching. Clearly, I have a soft-spot for Hondas. And the durability and reliability of a Honda cannot be beaten, IMO, but there is also an intangible component to our experiences. I came away very impressed by the 2007 BMW R1200RT I test rode, thinking I could knock out 300-500 mile days on it without issue. I cannot do that with my Trophy.

I'm aware of the litany of issues that speak negatively towards an RT - final drive failures, outrageously expensive ESA issues, fuel pump controller issues, $400 switch gear issues, etc. but I also read very consistently that it's got the best ergos, the best cockpit, the best /experience/ (when running). I don't know what the failure rates actually are - I suppose nobody does, not even BMW. I am utterly convinced that they are - in relative terms - probably an order of magnitude or more likely to experience major issues than what Honda experiences (especially with something like an ST, which is overbuilt). But. There is that intangible smile factor.

I need to find a way to get out on one of each for, say, an hour. I just don't have enough experience with them to know what I could live with for a weeks' worth of 500 mile days.

 

[Uncle Phil]

If you're not scared of older bikes, look at the ST1100 ABSII. I got way over 300,000+ miles on the three of mine and they are very 'mileage' capable -

www.unclephil.us

 

[drtyrrel]

I have a 96 r1100rt and a 2010 st1300. Both bikes are alot alike. If I had a chance to buy a decent 2010 RT for $5500 I would have bought that instead of my 2010 ST1300. Any bike is going to have problems if you ride it long enough.

 

[red one]

When and if I get rid of my 18 year old ST1100 I will probably look at a RT1250. In 2019 the new boxer engine will have variable valve timing and 136 HPs. It seems the Germans unlike Honda will not let their bikes go stale. I test rode the new Goldwing and it was not my cup of tea.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Some updates! You cannot imagine (well, actually, some of you probably can) how much time I'm putting into this little project.
I have absolutely devoured every bit of info I can find on many bikes - the above mentioned plus the ST1100 ABS, FJR1300 (2013+ ES), Super Tenere, etc.. cycle-ergo.com has been super helpful: my old Venture Royale has a nearly identical seating position as the R1200RT and it's pretty close to the ST1300 (with bar risers, and scooted forward a bit). I'd consider an ST1100 ABS for the right price, possibly, but I keep thinking that the R1200RT (despite it's final drive issues) or the ST1300 is what I want. I really think I want electronic cruise control, which means I either add it to the ST or I get an RT. None of the other bikes are in my price range or what I'm looking for. I did ride a Concours 14 and I kinda hated it. I also test drove three Goldwings - two of the prior generation and one new one. While all fine machines, only the new one really did much for me, and it's way out of my price range. Sorry. :-(

I plan on test-driving a semi local R1200RT and ST1300 - both at different dealers - as soon as I can. At least 30 minutes at highway speed, more if they'll let me. If I decide the ST will do the job (it sure would cost me less), are there any members in Southern WI that would be willing to lend their expertise in helping me to check a bike or two over? I'd buy lunch!

Also: many thank yous to those that have offered their advise! No matter how many holes I dig, I never find any pirate gold in the backyard, so I have to be careful with my dollars, and trying to do my homework is the best way I know how.

 

[dduelin]

If you have to be careful with your dollars there is really only one choice. That’s unfortunate as they are both fun and immensely capable bikes.

 

[AJMeister]

All my bikes have been Honda motorcycles for the simple reason that they are so reliable. I am German and would love to own a BMW bike but the lack of reliability and very high repair costs really scare me. I cannot comment on the ride quality but those costs I am not willing to even consider.

 

[SMSW]

Sounds like you will do your own maintenace. I have no idea what the canbus system on BMW's entails for troubleshooting, but I have read you need to buy a special computer to read error codes. ST's are fairly straightforward, and used parts can be surprisingly cheap. While that friend of yours found no BMW dealers in Alaska who could work on his bike, you can bet that the Honda dealer's mechanic (with a few exceptions) has never seen an ST inside his shop and is about as experienced working on them as small animal vets are working on giraffes.

 

[okckeith]

Buy what works for you. Consider budget. Consider what you want. Can you work on your own bike? Can you afford the maintenance? An R motor is a lot easier to work on if you do your own maintenance. A ST you probably don’t have to work on at all and still last you 100,000 miles. But it is not as fun to ride. And it does not have the bells and whistles that the BMW has. What do you want or need? That is the question you have to ask yourself?
I have a 2007 ST1300 with 92,000 miles on it that I bought new. It has been reliable from day one. I’m think with a few preventative maintenance things would go another 100,000 no problem. Probably many more.
I recently bought a 2016 BMW R1200RS. And I bought a 2015 Triumph 800XCX new in 2015. The ST sure still in the garage for now. I prefer riding both bikes over the ST when the roads get fun. They both have all the bells and whistles that the ST does not have.
Will either give me the reliability the ST has? I don’t know. I have extended warranty’s on both of them. Time will tell. But I sure am going to enjoy them finding out.
Buy what works for you and go enjoy yourself.

 

[Bones]

I had a 2003 ST1300 and rode it 100k mostly trouble-free miles. It had two factory recalls, the Hondaline heated grips died (replaced under warranty), it ate several sets of rear flange bearings, and had a genuine appetite for tires. One failure left me stranded by the roadside (a corroded electrical connector that fed power to the ignition). Help from my riding buddies, the RAN, a ride on a flatbed and a helpful local Honda dealer had me back on the road in a few hours. But the ST is a porker and for a small, bony guy like me that was always something I wished was different. Eventually I wanted the latest tech and less weight. I found it with a '14 R1200RT, which upgraded the ST in just about every way. Although the boxer twin will never be a Honda V4 in terms of smoothness, the liquid cooled version is a significant improvement over the oilhead boxers and ideally suited for the application in an RT. Torque everywhere, great power and purrs at speed. Every creature comfort imaginable, electronically adjustable everything, heated seats, cruise...the list goes on. As a complete, integrated sport-touring package, a liquid cooled RT is hard to match. Once you grow accustomed to the dynamics of a BMW telelever front end, which provides a different sort of feedback than you get from conventional forks, the responsive handling will impress you every time you ride. And the brakes are freaking amazing. I'm up to 33k miles on my RT with no mechanical issues. Bluetooth connectivity between Garmin and BMW and Sena and a phone is an occasional annoyance (usually following a software upgrade, but a clear/re-pair generally addresses things...too many ways to pair devices and the order of things matters). Otherwise it's been miles of smiles. BMW service costs more than Honda service, but not by much, and some things are less, like a valve adjustment. Oil change is the easiest of any bike I've had. Here's one "soft" issue to think about: the ST community is the best moto community I've been part of, and I have stayed a part of it even after I sold my ST. Some of my closest friends I met because this community had us crossing paths. Even that breakdown on the side of I-70 in East St. Louis had a good outcome, thanks to the ST community. If my experience is a fair measure, you won't go wrong with an ST or an RT. I say get the one you prefer and go ride it.

 

[red one]

Bones next year i'm going to the BMW dealer to demo the new 2019 1250 RT with the variable timing motor. Last one tested was in 2008. Other than the vibes it was ok.

 

[Bones]

Bones next year i'm going to the BMW dealer to demo the new 2019 1250 RT with the variable timing motor. Last one tested was in 2008. Other than the vibes it was ok.

When the liquid cooled RT came out, I started reading complaints from the BMW faithful that the new motor lacked character because it was so smooth. Reading those comments, which appeared in multiple forums and were made by many different people, made me think the new motor would be more to my liking than the 1150 and 1200 oilheads I'd ridden, which had more "character" than I like. I took a '14 for a test ride and knew 5 minutes into the ride that I was buying one.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Ugh. One of the two RTs I was looking at has developed a fuel leak, which (after some googling and NHTSA-ing) appears to be common. BMW appears to have extended the warranty on the highly problematic fuel strips to *12 years*, unlimited miles. It's difficult to balance the problems (at what likelihood/percentage of owners/severity) with the benefits of both bikes.

As it stands, I'll be taking a ST1300 for a test ride this weekend.
When it comes to ST13 model years, are there any standouts? The two I'm looking at right now are a 2003 and a 2006.

 

[Mellow]

There were some changes made in 2008.

In 2003 you could get a non-abs without an elect shield.

I would go for the 2006 just due to age if it were me. Check out the for sale section here too, you get a better picture of the bike based on the owners.