NOTICE !! Honda DCT during slow speed maneuvers!!

[core-aggie]

A member at a Gold Wing forum has just posted an update related to a side effect of the DCT tranny, when performing low speed maneuvers (he's involved in low speed training) - specifically, you end up with premature clutch failure

And the response he got from Mother Honda is, "it's NOT COVERED under warranty".

This is his SECOND Gold Wing this has happened to (after 3 weeks of ownership)... his first was covered under a "goodwill gesture". But with his current 'Wing, Honda has refused coverage.

This could affect OTHER Hondas with DCT.

He previously had a 2020 ... his latest is a 2022.

.

 

[ad.hom]

Just as I was starting to consider the 2023.

Not considering it anymore.

 

[core-aggie]

I've since gone back and started at Post #1 ... this image shows what he initially saw with his 2020 Gold Wing... "snowflakes" on the display (which I circled)

That prompted him to bring the bike (1st one) to the dealer

 

[core-aggie]

Just as I was starting to consider the 2023.

Not considering it anymore.

I'd say this issue happens only if you're constantly doing low speed maneuvers. If so, switch to manual mode or consider a non DCT version. You can certainly ruin a clutch doing the same with a standard tranny!

 

[Mellow]

Kind of odd... there have to be a lot of DCT Wingers doing slow speed stuff... I wonder how many have had this issue.

 

[Nashcat]

Kind of odd... there have to be a lot of DCT Wingers doing slow speed stuff... I wonder how many have had this issue.

You don’t use the brake on slow speed maneuvers on a DCT. Takes a while to realize the engine isn’t going to stall on the DCT like it does with a manual. With a manual, you modulate the clutch and brake, but on the DCT you can’t modulate the clutch if you’re on the throttle.

I wonder how many car DCT transmissions would hold up to constant throttle and just controlling speed, using the brakes?

 

[Mellow]

I wonder how many car DCT transmissions would hold up to constant throttle and just controlling speed, using the brakes?

Just ask Hyundai and Kia..

 

[Larry Fine]

You don’t use the brake on slow speed maneuvers on a DCT. Takes a while to realize the engine isn’t going to stall on the DCT like it does with a manual. With a manual, you modulate the clutch and brake, but on the DCT you can’t modulate the clutch if you’re on the throttle.

Does the DCT know the brake is being applied, say via monitoring the brake-light wire, or is it just spending too much time at too little RPM for the bike regardless of the brake usage?

I ask because I've taken the Ride Like a Pro course; dragging the rear brake is part of maintaining the low speed. It seems that the DCT bike would keep accelerating without the brake.

 

[Sadlsor]

This is (kind of) disappointing, as I've had my eye on the Africa Twin.
Then again, I've never actually felt a desire for any DCT, even though some here and elsewhere have softened my resistance. Personally, I view it as another solution in search of a problem.
However, as an MSF instructor I'd be riding for extended periods at low speed, as well as practicing just for my own skills improvement. (If you've never tried the U-turn in a box, aka "Figure 8" on your ST, you're in for an eye-opener, not to mention seat-clenching fear and trepidation at the beginning. But it CAN be done, and I find it satisfying to do so. That was the first time I dropped my 1300, doing that.)

 

[diferg]

Very unlike what is expected from Mother Honda! No DCT for ME.

 

[dduelin]

Kind of odd... there have to be a lot of DCT Wingers doing slow speed stuff... I wonder how many have had this issue.

One.

There is a long discussion of this guy's claims on a GW centric forum. I and many others have come to the conclusion it is pilot error.

It's no different that a manual clutch bike where the rider has abused the clutch and burned or glazed the friction disks. If you too use much rpm and not enough engagement in the friction zone you overheat and burn up the clutch. The clutch packs in a DCT bike are fundamentally no different than a manual clutch. The DCT bike uses an electrohydraulic method of engaging and disengaging the clutches but you still have the familiar friction disks in an oil bath. In order to control thrust to the rear wheel the rider sets a steady off-idle rpm and controls thrust to the driving wheel (speed) by modulating rear brake. Sure the brakes are linked but at low pedal pressures there isn't enough front brake pressure to upset the handling.

There is a large element of misunderstanding attached to this thread. There are thousands if not tens of thousands of Honda DCT transmissions in the 700/750s, the Africa Twin, and the Goldwing. Not one hint of a problem until this sensational claim.

I have over 46,000 miles on my DCT and love the way it handles in slow maneuvers. You simply hold about 1800 rpm and control speed with the rear brake.

 

[Mellow]

Seems to me like common sense would dictate manual mode and brake dragging for show obstacle course maneuvers... I assume the clutch won't feather in those conditions and probably a better approach anyway... I would say don't let it deter you from a DCT and just be aware of it when on a course like that.

 

[bdalameda]

I am very active on the Africa Twin forum and I own a Africa Twin DCT.. No issues at all have been reported for several years now with slow speed maneuvering causing issues with the DCT on the Africa Twin. As a matter of fact there are experts training riders to use the rear brake in place of the clutch on the AT for offroad slow maneuvering in tight spots and rocks etc. The DCT clutches are essentially the same type of clutch used on a standard bike but actuated hydraulically. I have heard of a couple of DCT clutch failures when ridden in heavy sticky muddy conditions for many miles. A standard clutch would have had issues as well.

The dealer that does service on Police Bikes told me that the ST1300 Police bikes have clutches replaced pretty regularly due to riding in traffic and doing slow maneuvers a lot. - no one thinks anything of that as it is accepted that slipping the clutch will cause wear.

 

[core-aggie]

I wonder how many car DCT transmissions would hold up to constant throttle and just controlling speed, using the brakes?

If you're suggesting a typical automatic tranny in most all autos, don't forget, they have a torque converter to modulate the "disconnect" of the engine to tranny ... there's no torque converter on the Honda DCTs

 

[Sadlsor]

I am very active on the Africa Twin forum and I own a Africa Twin DCT.. No issues at all have been reported for several years now with slow speed maneuvering causing issues with the DCT on the Africa Twin.

When I saw the original post / title, I wondered about that. The AT with DCT has been out for some time now, certainly long enough to identify any widespread problems with it.
And obviously, there will be a significant percentage of AT riders who bought this bike specifically to tackle offroad conditions.
Now, I'm inclined to agree with @dduelin that the "issue" is magnified and distorted, not representative of most DCTs.

 

[Nashcat]

If you're suggesting a typical automatic tranny in most all autos, don't forget, they have a torque converter to modulate the "disconnect" of the engine to tranny ... there's no torque converter on the Honda DCTs

My Ford Focus does have a DCT instead of a torque converter. Ford was smart enough to program the clutch to disengage, if you're holding the brake.

On the older Goldwings, if you had the wheel turned, the bike would just stop and stand there, using the friction zone. You see that a lot in slow races.

John

 

[Sadlsor]

On the older Goldwings, if you had the wheel turned, the bike would just stop and stand there, using the friction zone. You see that a lot in slow races.

Admittedly, that's a skill I'm still working on, with the ST.
It's also a scored exercise in the BMW Trophy trials. It's not a "natural" skill, like unconsciously countersteering or something we do every many times on every ride.

 

[Skunkape]

What do both of these failed bikes have in common? That’s it, same owner/rider. I suspect too much throttle and brake at the same time.

The DCT is not as easy to do low speed maneuvers on as a clutch bike. There is a very fine line between the throttle and brake operation doing slow speed stuff.

Manual mode or automatic wouldn’t matter it’s the same. I do however switch to rain mode for slow speed stuff to mellow out the throttle a little.

I’ve heard of people burning out the clutch in a single day on a manual bike too.

 

[SupraSabre]

Early on with the ST1300s, I was hearing that the cops were burning out their clutches. I really couldn't understand it, until I took an advanced MC class that a retired motor officer was teaching. After all the slow speed maneuvers we were making, I could see why those clutches were burning out so fast.

These bikes (I admit I have not ridden a DCT Wing, or any other wing for that matter) were not designed for that kind of abuse! They were designed for "normal" abuse!

So it doesn't surprise me that they are failing like that.

One reason I do not take my 2016 Tacoma 4x4 off roading all the time (and when I do, I take it easy) is because it was not made for that kind of abuse! I now have the 1990 Samurai to go beat up on the off roads.

My point is, using something that wasn't designed to take the abuse, you will wind up with unexpected results. In the case of the DCT transmission, replacing it every time you turn around could be expensive and lots of down time.

Find something that is easily fixed with that kind of abuse, instead of using something that wasn't designed for that kind of abuse!

 

[Sadlsor]

Just as a data point... we repair our own bikes for MSF ranges, the bikes used to teach the Basic RiderCourse.
I don't recall ever replacing a clutch on any of them. Broken clutch levers, all the time! From drops.
But smoked clutches? Never.
Can you imagine a much more abusive environment for clutches?
When we sell the bike as used, after several seasons, the average student bike has between 6 and 8 thousand miles, but these have suffered more clutch abuse in that time than the same bike at the hand of someone who already knows how to shift.
More data points: these bikes at our ranges included Honda Nighthawk 250, Kawasaki Eliminator 125, and the Suzuki TU-250.