NOTICE !! Honda DCT during slow speed maneuvers!!

[dduelin]

DCT in auto or manual modes doesn’t allow holding a higher gear than road speed allows. It’s impossible to be in 2nd or 3rd unless the bike is going fast enough to shift into those gears and if you go too slow in an gear it automatically downshifts to the next lower gear to prevent stalling. Minimum upshift speeds are programmed into the transmission control module as are minimum downshift speeds.

However the brakes are powerful enough to overcome engine thrust so the only thing could burn the clutch up in a short time is the starter clutch pack was forced to slip and to slip at a high engine rpm. High rpm’s were required to offset the braking force required to keep the bike going slow. Otherwise the bike wouldn’t start moving. Slipping at low rpm in the friction zone is the technique we learn to perform slow speed maneuvers and done within limits isn’t harmful to the clutch in a manual transmission or DCT.

There are tons of instructional videos on the net on how to do slow speed maneuvers with DCT bikes. You set a steady fast idle and control speed with by lightly dragging rear brake. You can also set the throttle at entirely too much rpm and hold heavy pressure on the brake. This guy proved you can and what happens when you do.

 

[Chris09]

I have no idea why anyone would bother reving an ST, Goldwing, or any other large long wheel base motorcycle, feathering the "rear" [is there such a thing anymore?] brake [I mean; can you feel the difference between how much you're acutually applying to the front brake Murray?] in a figure eight in four stalls of a parking lot; who are you trying to impress, do you really want to pay Honda or BMW to build sport touring motorcycles and make that work?
If that's what you want to do, go get a dirt bike, is it just me, yeah, so I was reving my engine while feathering my rear brake on my 11 or 13 hundred cc engine and... good grief.

 

[Sadlsor]

I find it helpful - figure 8s or whatever - to learn and KNOW the capabilities of the bikes I own and ride. It inspires confidence, and improves my personal riding skill level, which has and will be a continual, never ending quest of mine.
There are times when I have had to turn around in limited spaces, for whatever reason. I personally prefer to do it quickly and smoothly, and let the motor work for me, rather than the clumsy, awkward, feet-down multi-point Y-turn.
(Not to mention, as a RiderCoach, I am expected to demonstrate this technique in the BRC2 class.)
No, that's not why I bought this bike. But the bike is capable, and I am capable of this maneuver. I like riding Gymkhana for the same reason... just to be a better rider. I like challenging myself.
Yes, other machines, including smaller ones, may do it easier but that's not the point. I do this with precision, minimal brake use, and very little throttle to keep momentum.
Certainly riders CAN abuse clutches this way, but I don't feel like I'm significantly damaging my motor. And since my first drop (scuffing one black plastic tipover guard), I'm not damaging exterior bits, either.
Not being defensive, but I maintain tight slow speed turns are a useful tool in our riding skills toolbox.
If I misunderstood the intent of your post, Chris, I apologize.

 

[Gug]

I have a 18' Manual Trans, I also be long to the GL1800Riders forum and this is the 1st I have heard of this, even there. If this is true, Honda is not going to like this being the majority of their sales are DCT's. Also there is a Honda Master Mechanic on that forum that I have heard nothing from him either. I rode the DCT when my dealer received their first bike and elected for the manual trans, I have no regrets whatsoever. It is the best I have ever ridden. I will watch this for more info, I am concerned about the validity.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I have no idea why anyone would bother reving an ST, Goldwing, or any other large long wheel base motorcycle, feathering the "rear" [is there such a thing anymore?] brake [I mean; can you feel the difference between how much you're acutually applying to the front brake Murray?] in a figure eight in four stalls of a parking lot; who are you trying to impress, do you really want to pay Honda or BMW to build sport touring motorcycles and make that work?
If that's what you want to do, go get a dirt bike, is it just me, yeah, so I was reving my engine while feathering my rear brake on my 11 or 13 hundred cc engine and... good grief.

For the same reason that one practices, or should practice, hard accelerations, emergency braking, emergency steering maneuvers, emergency stopping and shut-down (not the same as emergency braking), etc, etc.. When the time comes that a particular skill is needed to accomplish any maneuver, be it in an emergency or not, is not the time to learn that skill.

 

[dduelin]

I have no idea why anyone would bother reving an ST, Goldwing, or any other large long wheel base motorcycle, feathering the "rear" [is there such a thing anymore?] brake [I mean; can you feel the difference between how much you're acutually applying to the front brake Murray?] in a figure eight in four stalls of a parking lot; who are you trying to impress, do you really want to pay Honda or BMW to build sport touring motorcycles and make that work?
If that's what you want to do, go get a dirt bike, is it just me, yeah, so I was reving my engine while feathering my rear brake on my 11 or 13 hundred cc engine and... good grief.

I have no idea why a rider would not want to learn how to handle with confidence a motorcycle in all situations they might encounter day to day. Precision slow speed maneuvering requires learning the techniques and practice on the motorcycle(s) that one rides often. Practical use of these techniques are used when negotiating crowded parking lots and narrow streets. Once the techniques are mastered they apply more or less to any motorcycle regardless of size or weight.

 

[Chris09]

Probably not my dumbest post but on a reread it rates up there, I'll give it an 8 out of 10. I've said it before, probably closer to novice skill wise compared to everyone else I'm uneducated my opinion means nothing. It wasn't my intent to trivialize the importance of learning and developing low speed control and maneuvering skills. What I was challenging a bit there is more specifically the technique of raising the rpm while applying the front brake during slow speed high angle turns on various linked braking systems and will they perform in a predictable repeatable manor, and how much is too much, is it the case that you only discover that when the front caliper grabs and down it goes fast and hard. I have my doubts that these systems [some entirely mechanical and some controlled by microprocessor on the basis of inputs] operate more or less similarly to each other let alone to conventional [traditional?] systems. I think as long as everything remains in exceptional working condition the entirely hydraulic systems could function in a consistently repeatable manor and maybe you don't have to be Ginger Baker to master the technique. I'm not so sure where on either LBS systems that I've got, where and to what degree that left front caliper gets squeezed [or grabbed] as I gradually apply pressure at the "rear" brake MC, and I think the only way to find out is the hard way.

 

[Chris09]

... take the pain! ... take the pain!!!

 

[Sadlsor]

I recall when BMW RT's were first introduced with LBS. Don't recall the year, but some time back.
At an MSF range, a young municipal motor scout (police-type) was demonstrating the U- turns in the box, and several rider bystanders were skeptical the slim, smallish man would be able to successfully handle the 1100cc machine within the boundaries, owing to the rear brake partially activating the front brake at the same time.
A couple of them opined the officer would lay it down while turning. Rather, he wheeled it through inside the smaller dimensions (the 10ft width for bikes < 600cc) with ease, while dabbing the rear brake, and then proceeded to ride small 360s for what seemed like forever.
As I've learned, it's all about technique. Using the rear brake is completely optional, and unnecessary if you have the confidence to keep your speed up while leaning in the narrow space.
But light use of the brake pedal does not guarantee a crash, when used properly for the exercise.
The RT was also the first bike I had ever seen with an electrically adjustable windscreen.
That impressed me more than his superb riding.

 

[Chris09]

Having not taken any courses I kind of pluck what I can from other's experience and that part of the sentence sort of nails it down from where I'm at - optional and unnecessary if you have the confidence to keep your speed up - is reassuring because that's what I have started doing out of brake fear application phobia and it has resulted in an improvement in my own recent crowded parking lot slow speed control experience while staying completely off any brake unless I first straightened it up completely; kind of hard to explain but an almost - there are no brakes mentality. It's a lot going on and hard to remember every detail but just focusing a bit on throttle and clutch and the rest was easier.

 

[Sadlsor]

Good observation, Chris.
I've watched many successful attempts, some quickly with a lot of lean, and others much slower, nearly vertical, with fine balance and clutch control.
There's no right or wrong, only what works for an individual rider.
Nonetheless, rider / bike control is always a good thing.

 

[dduelin]

Good observation, Chris.
I've watched many successful attempts, some quickly with a lot of lean, and others much slower, nearly vertical, with fine balance and clutch control.
There's no right or wrong, only what works for an individual rider.
Nonetheless, rider / bike control is always a good thing.

To sort of come back to the thread topic, DCT removes the clutch lever's control over thrust to the rear wheel and the technique of modulating the brake pedal to control thrust to the rear wheel replaces the clutch lever. For those of us that started riding on automatic clutch motorbikes of 50 odd years ago we learned this technique first before we ever had a manual clutch.

 

[Chris09]

well unless I'm really not getting it, [which happened once, in 1967, won't digress too much] the thread topic is that he's [apparently] cooking the frictions in the basket; which begs the question, who are those of us that started on on automatic clutch motorcycles; maybe I'm reading it backwards, but it is, as far as I'm concerned at least another layer of skill I [gleefully and without broken bones] anticipate never attaining; I don't think it's essential for low speed control and my feeling is that these brake systems need to be completely understood [which after twenty years of examination I do not] before attempting to employ conventional [dirt bike / enduro bike / trials bike] methods; I remain.

 

[Sadlsor]

I'm one that started on an auto- clutch "system" if we are to call it that.
1972 Sears minibike 3.5hp, B&S pull start engine, fiction pad against the rear tire for a brake.
That one messed up, so it quickly morphed into a 4hp to replace it. My dad was in Vietnam, we had just moved back to Alabama from Germany, and he swore I'd never have a motorcycle while I lived under his roof. We lived with his parents for the year he was in Nam, and Mom looked for a house for in that time.
Of course, all the cool kids were on Honda Mini Trail 50s or Trail 70s, but my grandfather likely didn't know the difference or maybe couldn't afford it... what do I know? I was 12 or 13. But he spoiled us while dad was gone.
And I was never a cool kid until I bought my first Suzuki GT550 at 17yo with money I made working at Baskin-Robbins.
Even then, I only thought I was cool, but was in reality just another run-of-the-mill misfit. The bike did help in finding my first 2 girlfriends, though...

 

[Chris09]

but aren't some of these early auto clutch systems more like CVT transmissions where drive : driven pulley ratios vary [inversely] proportionately [more or less] as a function of applied torque, and power is transfered through a belt, where as the DCT types are conventional manual transmissions complete with synchro assemblies and the only real difference are automated dual [multi] wet clutches.
There's no mistaking the sound of these multi gear transmissions ripping consistently to the same peak rpm and crunching into the next gear in my neck of the woods, and these guys aren't that good, they're mainly video game pedal mashers that have barely mastered the rudimentary task of steering until the real ____ starts.

 

[dduelin]

but aren't some of these early auto clutch systems more like CVT transmissions where drive : driven pulley ratios vary [inversely] proportionately [more or less] as a function of applied torque, and power is transfered through a belt, where as the DCT types are conventional manual transmissions complete with synchro assemblies and the only real difference are automated dual [multi] wet clutches.
There's no mistaking the sound of these multi gear transmissions ripping consistently to the same peak rpm and crunching into the next gear in my neck of the woods, and these guys aren't that good, they're mainly video game pedal mashers that have barely mastered the rudimentary task of steering until the real ____ starts.

The classic Honda auto clutch 50, 70, and 90 have 3 or 4 speed manual sequential shift gearboxes with a foot shifter. Think Honda Cubs, Super Cubs, MiniTrail 50s and 70s, Passport 70s. It's not in any way related to CVT. Honda still sells 50 and 110cc dirt bikes in the USA with the same auto clutch/manual shift gearbox and of course the Cub 50 is still in production in factories around the world. First bikes for many boomers.

 

[core-aggie]

Well, I dropped in over at that thread in the Gold Wing forum, to see if there's any new news. The OP hasn't followed up with anything new. However, and obviously, others have chimed in.
Here's a couple of examples ... the first one is interesting because they quote out of the Owner's Manual - it's mildly suggestive.

--- opinion #1 ----
Point here is that if you burn out a clutch on your manual transmission, that is your fault and it is a 'wear' item not covered.

If you (the DCT computer) burn out your DCT clutch that is controlled by a computer and the rider has no control over, then IMHO it is NOT a 'wear' item and should be covered under warranty.

The manual states specifically that one must not use "walk mode" up hills ... IMHO that is a Honda 'fail' saying in effect "our product lacks the ability to do this normal task". It all comes back to the DCT design.

----- opinion #2 - what most think -----
There have been ...what ... a few tens of thousands of DCT Wings sold? How many burned up clutches have we all heard about?

I've heard about one. This one.

As I've mentioned before, I've taken low-speed courses on this bike, taught by police motor officer instructors. I've let one of the instructors ride my bike. I practice.

Sorry, there's just no way around the truth. One rider burned up two clutches on two different bikes, in an absurdly short amount of time.

It's the rider. Period. Deny it all you want, try to justify it all you want, it's the rider. He's running too much throttle and too much brake, and the brakes and clutch are fighting each other.
--- end ---

This last respondent also provided the video just below ... this person has never ridden a GW DCT, and demos some slow speed maneuvers... midway thru, he does so WITHOUT the use of brakes:
.

 

[Chris09]

thought I saw just a little brake light flicker there at 7:22, great job.

 

[Firstpeke]

Sounds to me like what we call over here, "Not fit for purpose"......

I ride a DCT NT1100 and if I thought the clutch was going to burn out through low speed riding, I would take the bike back......

As I no longer do advanced rider mentoring I don't need to "do" slow speed riding, unless it is in traffic.... we shall see how this pans out!

 

[Hound]

I enjoy the DCT system on my 2013 Crosstourer. It's never given me a problem. I wish it was something that could be retrofitted to the ST!

What's the NT1100 like? I like the lower weight but I'm not convinced by the 2 cylinders and chain drive (my bike lives outside, a bit unkind to chains).