It finally happened, time to go...

[Tor]

@Tor to the batphone please! Tor has both. His information would be better than mine, but I don't see the ergos as comparable and the buzz and frenetic nature of the S1000 is not my cuppa Joe. Plus, I am not mature enough to manage it without show-stopping law enforcement implications.

@Bmacleod I had to go back a couple of pages to understand your train of thought. From what I can gather, you initially was looking at an R1250RT, then looked at an R1250GS, but then got absolutely mesmerized after looking at an S1000XR.

If you are looking for a touring bike, the S1000XR is not it. The S1000XR has the same engine as the S1000RR, but tuned a little different (more torque mid-range). It is still basically a very angry-acting S1000 superbike engine, and its inline four runs at about 5K at ~70 mph.. You will love the XR on twisty mountain roads, as it is VERY planted, nimble, with a smooth power delivery that will do whatever you tell it to, whether it be sick acceleration out of corners, or power wheelies in first to fourth gear. A touring bike it is not.

The R1200GS / R12050GS is a very capable touring bike, and the GSA more so due to larger tank, longer suspension travel, and more wind protection up front. No real change between the 1200 and the 1250. The 1250 has a few more HP, and the new shiftcam engine. A GSA is just as good a touring bike as the RT. The GSA seat height is taller. Mine is a 2015 GSA, and have used it for touring since.

Now if I wanted to have some serious fun in the western NC mountains, I take the XR, because it is simply a dream and a beast to ride on those roads. You can't compare the two, even though they both have an upright riding position. Completely different temperaments.

Both have (if you choose the package), dynamic traction control / electronic suspension control / ABS Pro (leaning ABS) / Ride modes. These are still much more refined on the XR than on the GSA. The XR also has shift assist Pro (butter smooth clutch-less up and down, regardless of engine load). My GSA has shift assist, but is far from the shift assist Pro on the XR.

If you have more detailed questions, let me know, and I'll try to answer.

Edit: Sorry I didnt see your reply while I was typing this. The vibes in the XR handlebars @ ~5000 rpm did never bother me. I still installed heavy Evotech bar ends, which all but removed the vibes completely.

 

[Bmacleod]

@Bmacleod I had to go back a couple of pages to understand your train of thought. From what I can gather, you initially was looking at an R1250RT, then looked at an R1250GS, but then got absolutely mesmerized after looking at an S1000XR.

If you are looking for a touring bike, the S1000XR is not it. The S1000XR has the same engine as the S1000RR, but tuned a little different (more torque mid-range). It is still basically a very angry-acting S1000 superbike engine, and its inline four runs at about 5K at ~70 mph.. You will love the XR on twisty mountain roads, as it is VERY planted, nimble, with a smooth power delivery that will do whatever you tell it to, whether it be sick acceleration out of corners, or power wheelies in first to fourth gear. A touring bike it is not.

The R1200GS / R12050GS is a very capable touring bike, and the GSA more so due to larger tank, longer suspension travel, and more wind protection up front. No real change between the 1200 and the 1250. The 1250 has a few more HP, and the new shiftcam engine. A GSA is just as good a touring bike as the RT. The GSA seat height is taller. Mine is a 2015 GSA, and have used it for touring since.

Now if I wanted to have some serious fun in the western NC mountains, I take the XR, because it is simply a dream and a beast to ride on those roads. You can't compare the two, even though they both have an upright riding position. Completely different temperaments.

Both have (if you choose the package), dynamic traction control / electronic suspension control / ABS Pro (leaning ABS) / Ride modes. These are still much more refined on the XR than on the GSA. The XR also has shift assist Pro (butter smooth clutch-less up and down, regardless of engine load). My GSA has shift assist, but is far from the shift assist Pro on the XR.

If you have more detailed questions, let me know, and I'll try to answer.

Edit: Sorry I didnt see your reply while I was typing this. The vibes in the XR handlebars @ ~5000 rpm did never bother me. I still installed heavy Evotech bar ends, which all but removed the vibes completely.

Thank you Tor, that is good information. I have a lot of decisions to make and right now with the weather, I'm just going to have to wait till riding season starts and then I don't know what the dealers are going to be doing this year with covid, if they're going to be offering rides.
Stay safe

 

[Daboo]

I took your advice and looked into the ergos of the 1250GS and got sidetracked into dreaming of the s1000xr. That thing is sweeet. Similar egos and lighter still. Do you have any thoughts on this Beemer Lee, or anyones experience or thoughts for that matter.

Just a couple thoughts on the XR...
First, consider the F900XR as well. The horsepower isn't as much, but one of the reviews I've read indicated the reviewer actually preferred the F900XR instead.

Second, find a forum for the bikes you are interested in.

• DON'T ask if you should buy that particular bike. That would be totally dumb. Any of us can tell you what they'll say. Besides, they just paid a whole lot of money...none of them will tell you they made a mistake.
• Instead, look to see what modifications they make on their bikes. That'll tell you what they find they need to change to make the bike livable.
• Next, look for what they are asking for help to fix. That'll tell you what they find that breaks or doesn't work right.

Magazine reviewers have only a couple hours usually with a bike, and many of them freely copy the press releases to write their articles. But by seeing what the actual owners do their bikes, tells a much better story.

Chris

 

[Bmacleod]

Just a couple thoughts on the XR...
First, consider the F900XR as well. The horsepower isn't as much, but one of the reviews I've read indicated the reviewer actually preferred the F900XR instead.

Second, find a forum for the bikes you are interested in.

• DON'T ask if you should buy that particular bike. That would be totally dumb. Any of us can tell you what they'll say. Besides, they just paid a whole lot of money...none of them will tell you they made a mistake.
• Instead, look to see what modifications they make on their bikes. That'll tell you what they find they need to change to make the bike livable.
• Next, look for what they are asking for help to fix. That'll tell you what they find that breaks or doesn't work right.

Magazine reviewers have only a couple hours usually with a bike, and many of them freely copy the press releases to write their articles. But by seeing what the actual owners do their bikes, tells a much better story.

Chris

Yep, doin lots of reading on other sites/forums. Just askin for input

 

[Tor]

Just a couple thoughts on the XR...
First, consider the F900XR as well. The horsepower isn't as much, but one of the reviews I've read indicated the reviewer actually preferred the F900XR instead.

Second, find a forum for the bikes you are interested in.

• DON'T ask if you should buy that particular bike. That would be totally dumb. Any of us can tell you what they'll say. Besides, they just paid a whole lot of money...none of them will tell you they made a mistake.
• Instead, look to see what modifications they make on their bikes. That'll tell you what they find they need to change to make the bike livable.
• Next, look for what they are asking for help to fix. That'll tell you what they find that breaks or doesn't work right.

Magazine reviewers have only a couple hours usually with a bike, and many of them freely copy the press releases to write their articles. But by seeing what the actual owners do their bikes, tells a much better story.

Chris

Just my 2 cents here, having put about 25K touring on a 2010 F800GS. Absolutely awesome bike, specially off-road, except......and just my take on it.......it is too small for touring, and not very comfortable on long days at highway speed. (limited wind protection and engine power). I think the 900XR has a similar engine as the good old Rotax Twin, which the 800GS had, just a different manufacturer, along with other similar features.

When I go touring for days on end, I want sufficient engine power, excellent wind protection, comfortable seat, good ergonomics, road presence, packing capacity. I'll stop here

 

[Steve398]

... and here's what replaced the ST, a 2018 RT LC in 'Carbon Black' according to BMW but to you and me it's a very dark blue metallic. I actually bought it in the middle of December, but thanks to the latest UK Covid-19 lockdown I actually only managed to get out for a decent ride on it yesterday.
Briefly it was pretty much as I expected - comfortable, very brisk on acceleration, good brakes, and very light and nimble through the bends... I'm still yet to be fully conversant with the mass of gizmos, but I'm getting there!
Overall, am I happy to have made the move from the ST to the RT?
Absolutely, it's very nice having a newer bike and it's very pretty, but most of all it's SO much lighter and less of a handful, but I do miss the ST and really wish that Honda had got their act together and brought out an updated model.

 

[Highway STar]

That is a beautiful looking machine.

 

[caldercay]

and here's what replaced the ST, a 2018 RT LC in 'Carbon Black'

As I look back at your first post, you wrote:
BMW R1200RT LE

... is that what we're looking at here?

 

[Bmacleod]

... and here's what replaced the ST, a 2018 RT LC in 'Carbon Black' according to BMW but to you and me it's a very dark blue metallic. I actually bought it in the middle of December, but thanks to the latest UK Covid-19 lockdown I actually only managed to get out for a decent ride on it yesterday.
Briefly it was pretty much as I expected - comfortable, very brisk on acceleration, good brakes, and very light and nimble through the bends... I'm still yet to be fully conversant with the mass of gizmos, but I'm getting there!
Overall, am I happy to have made the move from the ST to the RT?
Absolutely, it's very nice having a newer bike and it's very pretty, but most of all it's SO much lighter and less of a handful, but I do miss the ST and really wish that Honda had got their act together and brought out an updated model.

That is sweet lookin'

 

[Steve398]

As I look back at your first post, you wrote:
BMW R1200RT LE
... is that what we're looking at here?

It's actually the newer water cooled version introduced in 2014 and designated as a BMW R1200RT LC or RTW.

On our first visit to the BMW Motorrad dealership we checked out a spotless 2009 air cooled RT LE, but my wife didn't find the pillion seat as comfortable as the Pan on the test ride, then as we were leaving I saw the later water cooled LC version on the forecourt. It was certainly a looker but out of our agreed budget, and to make matters worse the pillion seat was larger and more comfortable when my wife tried it.

Deep discussions followed for the next week before we gave in and added more funds. A test ride of the new model followed in typical British December weather, wet and very cold, but with the electronically adjustable ride mode set for rain off we went... foul but fun best describes it! So the search started and we eventually found the one above at the BMW sister dealership that stocked the traded machines that didn't qualify to be 'Approved Motorrad' and sold by the main BMW dealership, ours was there because it had been once serviced in it's 16,000 mile lifetime by a Kawasaki dealer rather than BMW.

The R1200RT LC model comes as SE (basic) or LE with various packages that can be added by the purchaser of a new machine at the factory. This particular edition had a number of additions to the basic SE model (the nomenclatures may be incorrect) -

Hill start - A hard pull on the front brake sets it as a sort of parking brake on a hill, so you can take your hand off the lever, either a quick squeeze on the brake lever or more revs as you move off disengages the brake.
Dynamic - Standard has Rain and Road modes. The Dynamic mode add-on is best described as a go-go button and gives more acceleration and hardens up the suspension if you want to play.
Angel lights - Pretty to look at, but they do give off a distinctive presence in drivers mirrors and may cause them to be more aware of you... there's always hope!
Prestige - Chrome bits on the panniers and fairing. There's probably more but I haven't looked into it.
SOS - There's a button on the handlebars that activated by you pressing it if you need assistance, or it may also be further activated by a collision, automatically sending a signal via a sim and gets you a real live person asking if you're OK and what can they do to help. Life long subscription transferred with resale, paid for by a one-off fee at new.
Tracker - by Datatool, an annual subscription of £109
GPS - There's a location for a GPS made by Garmin in co-ordination with BMW that works with the bike allowing access to various aspects of the bikes health under the 'My bike' menu.
TPMS - as you'd appreciate, Tyre Pressure Monitor System.
Heated grips and heated seats as standard, and believe me, if you did our cold wet test ride in December you'd know just how very welcome they were!
Central locking - panniers/topbox/fairing pocket all operated by a button on the dash or key fob and activated with ignition.
Keyless - as the name suggests, a fob to put round your neck or in a pocket, it does have its downsides if you lose the sensor at £200 a pop.

I'm sure there's more but that'll do to go on with, it's heck of a package. I'm not saying that it's all essential but there are some very nice bits that would have been very attractive on a Pan.

 

[caldercay]

Keyless - as the name suggests, a fob to put round your neck or in a pocket, it does have its downsides if you lose the sensor at £200 a pop.

Thanks for the details.

Rotator cuff damage here too, left arm only, though at this point, no need to swap out the ST, but curious about your new ride (my wife is also very focused on the pillion seat, which is why she loves the Gold Wing seat : )

I highlight the quote above because I've recently misplaced the wife's "previous"[1] E320 key and need to replace it - it's a special order item with a set-back of $300 usd!! really? $300 for a key?!

I'm notorious for misplacing keys ... my thought is, just as soon as I order a $300 replacement, I will discover the original I've misplaced

[1] I bought her a GLK350 even before key loss, so she's not without a vehicle : )

 

[mcarver351]

Thanks for the details.

Rotator cuff damage here too, left arm only, though at this point, no need to swap out the ST, but curious about your new ride (my wife is also very focused on the pillion seat, which is why she loves the Gold Wing seat : )

I highlight the quote above because I've recently misplaced the wife's "previous"[1] E320 key and need to replace it - it's a special order item with a set-back of $300 usd!! really? $300 for a key?!

I'm notorious for misplacing keys ... my thought is, just as soon as I order a $300 replacement, I will discover the original I've misplaced

[1] I bought her a GLK350 even before key loss, so she's not without a vehicle : )

I'm glad someone else admits they misplace keys. I swear they grow legs and run off to places I've never been. I put a hook in the kitchen to put them on when I get home but that didn't help much

 

[BendBill]

Good choice of mount, year, color

 

[BrianB]

My ST1300 went away last year. I had fallen in love with the BMW GSA 1200 so a new one was added into the STable. Now I loved my ST just as much but the Big BMW is just more nimble and so much better at the riding that I do. I had put a lot of K on the ST, two up with my sweetie as well but just never got comfortable at slower speeds. The Beemer had me doing circles, U turns and figure 8s the first day. It's still a heavy pig to pick up, but I can. The last time I dropped the ST I couldn't pick it up, had to wait for help to stop. Made selling a tad less painful. Maybe if Honda had kept it up to date and changed how it carried it's weight I would be on a new ST. I move on with no regrets.

 

[mcarver351]

My ST1300 went away last year. I had fallen in love with the BMW GSA 1200 so a new one was added into the STable. Now I loved my ST just as much but the Big BMW is just more nimble and so much better at the riding that I do. I had put a lot of K on the ST, two up with my sweetie as well but just never got comfortable at slower speeds. The Beemer had me doing circles, U turns and figure 8s the first day. It's still a heavy pig to pick up, but I can. The last time I dropped the ST I couldn't pick it up, had to wait for help to stop. Made selling a tad less painful. Maybe if Honda had kept it up to date and changed how it carried it's weight I would be on a new ST. I move on with no regrets.

That is a training issue and nothing more. Come to a police motorcycle competition and you will see the ST is as nimble as any sport touring bike whether you are a 250 lb block of muscle or a 110 lb thin female. You have to develop the skills to ride any bike to its full potential. We have BMW's, Harley Davidsons, Concourse's, ST1300's and Honda Goldwings all compete and not one manufacturer dominates the competition. As a long time ST1300 rider and trainer, the weight is perfect even with a full tank of fuel.

 

[Sadlsor]

It did take me several tries to get the figure 8's in a box, down to the 20-ft box but it's worth it.
Took me a while to get used to the weight; my former bike was 200 lbs less weight. It was no lightweight at 525 lbs, but the ST is super-manageable, super-turnable, with the correct technique. I won't go into the details, which are found elsewhere all-around, but in my case counter-weighting helps me.
As a RiderCoach, I maintain the proper techniques make the model of bike irrelevant. The GoldWings are capable, as are the Harley dressers, and those are all heavier than our ST by a wide margin.
Perhaps I should qualify that as "standard" models. I haven't tried on a chopper, nor on a full-on sportbike with their shallower handlbar lock.

 

[Larry Fine]

I won't go into the details, which are found elsewhere all-around, but in my case counter-weighting helps me.

By that, do you mean leaning the bike more than yourself?

 

[dduelin]

That is a training issue and nothing more. Come to a police motorcycle competition and you will see the ST is as nimble as any sport touring bike whether you are a 250 lb block of muscle or a 110 lb thin female. You have to develop the skills to ride any bike to its full potential. We have BMW's, Harley Davidsons, Concourse's, ST1300's and Honda Goldwings all compete and not one manufacturer dominates the competition. As a long time ST1300 rider and trainer, the weight is perfect even with a full tank of fuel.

Having owned both the ST1300 and R1200RT I can say with no reservation the RT is easier than the ST to complete slow speed full lock U turns, eights, and stop pause 90 degree turns. I pride myself at achieving a high level or proficiency in slow maneuvers on every bike I own. Whether or not that equates to police competition courses isn't the comparison here, it's how well balanced the bike is and how easy or hard it is for the rider to master it. The ST is capable of every one of these maneuvers with the right amount of practice...... it's just easier on the RT. I think if I owned the RT first I'd think the ST was unnecessary difficult to complete the same maneuvers. Sure, you can train the rider to the needs required if you have to but the needs are different.

I can't explain it other than "you know it when you do it". It is BS to say that a rider must develop the skill to ride both bikes to their potential so therefore both bikes are equally nimble when the rider can complete the prescribed course. The bikes are not equal and it is the rider that must develop the skill to complete the prescribed maneuvers on the more difficult machine.

 

[Winged_STer]

I took the Ride Like a Pro course over the weekend which is basically all low speed manuevers, tight u-turns, decreasing radius turns, cone weaves, etc., on my K1600 which is about 100 lbs heavier than the ST. It was challenging to move that weight around but it was doable. I agree with dduelin that "the rider that must develop the skill to complete the prescribed maneuvers on the more difficult machine." Those skills will translate to better riding on just about anything.

 

[mcarver351]

Having owned both the ST1300 and R1200RT I can say with no reservation the RT is easier than the ST to complete slow speed full lock U turns, eights, and stop pause 90 degree turns. I pride myself at achieving a high level or proficiency in slow maneuvers on every bike I own. Whether or not that equates to police competition courses isn't the comparison here, it's how well balanced the bike is and how easy or hard it is for the rider to master it. The ST is capable of every one of these maneuvers with the right amount of practice...... it's just easier on the RT. I think if I owned the RT first I'd think the ST was unnecessary difficult to complete the same maneuvers. Sure, you can train the rider to the needs required if you have to but the needs are different.

I can't explain it other than "you know it when you do it". It is BS to say that a rider must develop the skill to ride both bikes to their potential so therefore both bikes are equally nimble when the rider can complete the prescribed course. The bikes are not equal and it is the rider that must develop the skill to complete the prescribed maneuvers on the more difficult machine.

I've have ridden all of the motorcycles you described and can speak from experience as a police motorcycle instructor and rider for 30 years graduating 47 riders through the course successfully. The only time you are balancing the bike is when traveling straight up and down. Every other maneuver is done under power using the proper amount of clutch, throttle, and brake. It makes me laugh when I hear one bike is easier to balance than another. You are not going to get any of those bikes making a 17' circle without leaning the bike. The biggest problem with riders is they believe they are good at slow skills but they do it riding straight up and down because they are afraid to lean the bike. As a result, many riders out on the street end up crossing the center line on a curve in the road, going head on with an oncoming vehicle. This type of collision resulted in the most motorcycle fatalities last year. If you can't describe what the difference is in the two bikes, and it is a feeling thing, than it's subjective based on an individual rider's skill and experience.