It finally happened, time to go...

[dduelin]

I've have ridden all of the motorcycles you described and can speak from experience as a police motorcycle instructor and rider for 30 years graduating 47 riders through the course successfully. The only time you are balancing the bike is when traveling straight up and down. Every other maneuver is done under power using the proper amount of clutch, throttle, and brake. It makes me laugh when I hear one bike is easier to balance than another. You are not going to get any of those bikes making a 17' circle without leaning the bike. The biggest problem with riders is they believe they are good at slow skills but they do it riding straight up and down because they are afraid to lean the bike. As a result, many riders out on the street end up crossing the center line on a curve in the road, going head on with an oncoming vehicle. This type of collision resulted in the most motorcycle fatalities last year. If you can't describe what the difference is in the two bikes, and it is a feeling thing, than you have to look at the riders skill level.

LOL, Yes, I'm afraid to lean and just full lock turn a bike by turning the handlebars alone while sitting upright in the seat. Is there another way?? I had no idea.

Here's a little thing I taped 10 years ago on my '05 showing the drastic difference in turn radius when counterbalancing vs sitting bolt upright and just turning the bars.

When I use the term balance I mean the RT is much easier to flick over in a linear fashion from vertical to over on it's side and back upright and to the other side. It feels much lighter and easier to balance during transitions in slow speed stuff. You must indeed balance the bike when far from upright - you balance it with thrust against gravity while counterbalancing with body weight to the high side in slow speed manuevers...... you do know the difference right?

You might need to review the MSF basic text, not only for slow speed turns but the difference between counterbalancing in slow speed turns and countersteering through corners.

And you don't need a clutch - doesn't that blow your mind? Here's a couple things I taped to show that balancing thrust against drag accomplishes the same thing as working the friction zone. I learned that 50 years ago on a Honda 50 with it's automatic clutch three speed, similar to the Passport 70 shown here, the NC700X and Goldwing are DCT.

 

[Sadlsor]

By that, do you mean leaning the bike more than yourself?

Sort of, but not really.
Counterweighting is merely leaning your upper body to the outside of the turn / lean, i.e., "counter" to the lean of the bike.
In a slow right turn, bike leans right, rider shifts upper body to the left, and vice-versa. Some will scoot their butt to the outside as well, but I find it unnecessary on my 1300.

 

[Sadlsor]

I can't explain it other than "you know it when you do it". It is BS to say that a rider must develop the skill to ride both bikes to their potential so therefore both bikes are equally nimble when the rider can complete the prescribed course. The bikes are not equal and it is the rider that must develop the skill to complete the prescribed maneuvers on the more difficult machine.

Please be careful, Dave.
I never said that any bikes are "equal", only that most bikes, even those heavier than the ST, are fully capable of 20-foot tight turns, and even shorter, with a skilled and practiced rider.
We agree that in most cases, it will be the rider, and not the bike, that is the limiting factor.

 

[dduelin]

Please be careful, Dave.
I never said that any bikes are "equal", only that most bikes, even those heavier than the ST, are fully capable of 20-foot tight turns, and even shorter, with a skilled and practiced rider.
We agree that in most cases, it will be the rider, and not the bike, that is the limiting factor.

I'm sorry Mark. I wasn't responding to you though you made excellent points.

 

[BrianB]

Some excellent points. I still think the ST is more of a handful at slow speed. I took several weekend courses. Learned the balance between, drive, clutch slip, and rear brake. I would leave with loads of confidence at my slow speed skill only to ***** up and drop the bike ( the ST) at the postal box the next day. Learned bad habits that take back over from the new muscle memory, who knows! I would keep a set of tip over wing covers in reserve. LOL I of course make it sound worse than it was but riding the GSA, I just seem to be able to maneuver with out the worry of dumping it on it's side. Maybe the training has finally stuck. Of course, I do several tight figure 8s in the parking lot close to work, just about every day I ride. Of course now that I've conquered asphalt, I am venturing out onto gravel and learning something new. Hence the transition to three wheels. Which adds a whole different aspect to muscle memory

 

[Larry Fine]

Counterweighting is merely leaning your upper body to the outside of the turn / lean, i.e., "counter" to the lean of the bike.
In a slow right turn, bike leans right, rider shifts upper body to the left, and vice-versa.

Okay, I think I get it. Please tell me if I'm right. (I haven't watched the above videos yet. I'll do that next.)

You're describing the opposite of what racers do. They shift their body weight to the inside, so the bike can take a given radius at a given speed, but have the bike lean less than it would if they were in the same plane as the bike.

Whereas, for slow, tight turns, the rider should shift their body weight to the outside, so the bike can take a given radius at a given speed, but have the bike lean more than it would if they were in the same plane as the bike.

And this is necessary because, with the tilted steering geometry a bike has, and regardless of speed, a leaning bike can make a much tighter turn than it could if it had a vertical steering axis, more like a 4-wheeled vehicle.

What we have to learn is how to do this without having to hold the bike up with our feet. Counter-weighting apparently counteracts the tendency (and fear) of the bike falling inside, which less-experienced riders tend to do.

I notice that I tend to tilt the bike more than myself when on twisty roads, especially on tighter turns and S-curves, as counter-steering lets me "flick" the bike side to side more quickly without having to move my weight, too.

Since getting the ST, which has less lean angle and is much heavier than my Nighthawk, I have been making an effort to lean my weight inward in an effort to lean the bike less. I have gotten used to my toes hitting the pavement.

 

[mcarver351]

LOL, Yes, I'm afraid to lean and just full lock turn a bike by turning the handlebars alone while sitting upright in the seat. Is there another way?? I had no idea.

Here's a little thing I taped 10 years ago on my '05 showing the drastic difference in turn radius when counterbalancing vs sitting bolt upright and just turning the bars.

When I use the term balance I mean the RT is much easier to flick over in a linear fashion from vertical to over on it's side and back upright and to the other side. It feels much lighter and easier to balance during transitions in slow speed stuff. You must indeed balance the bike when far from upright - you balance it with thrust against gravity while counterbalancing with body weight to the high side in slow speed manuevers...... you do know the difference right?

You might need to review the MSF basic text, not only for slow speed turns but the difference between counterbalancing in slow speed turns and countersteering through corners.

And you don't need a clutch - doesn't that blow your mind? Here's a couple things I taped to show that balancing thrust against drag accomplishes the same thing as working the friction zone. I learned that 50 years ago on a Honda 50 with it's automatic clutch three speed, similar to the Passport 70 shown here, the NC700X and Goldwing are DCT.

The MSF basic course? That is funny. I may have missed something in those videos but I didn't see much lean angle. Its easy when you don't set up cones to keep you honest. We don't let our officers shift their butt on the seat. The reason you are having to compensate by moving around on the seat is because you keep dipping your inside shoulder and you're not keeping your weight to the outside. Keep your shoulders straight, turn your head in the direction you want to turn, and don't dip your shoulder and you won't have to shift on your seat like you do. Shifting your weight on the seat is for track days when you're dragging a knee and your speed and lean angle are surpassing the ability of the tire to adhere to the surface it is traveling across, but you already knew that

 

[Sadlsor]

Okay, I think I get it. Please tell me if I'm right. (I haven't watched the above videos yet. I'll do that next.)

You're describing the opposite of what racers do. They shift their body weight to the inside, so the bike can take a given radius at a given speed, but have the bike lean less than it would if they were in the same plane as the bike.

Whereas, for slow, tight turns, the rider should shift their body weight to the outside, so the bike can take a given radius at a given speed, but have the bike lean more than it would if they were in the same plane as the bike.

This is correct, @Larry Fine.
Leaning the bike allows for tighter turns. Counterweighting mitigates the tendency of the bike to fall into the turn at slow speed. Speed also mitigates this tendency, but too much speed can also shoot you past your mark, so it is a balance.

I have gotten used to my toes hitting the pavement.

Because the balls of your feet aren't on the footpegs. In quick turns, as on a windy road, you won't be shifting a lot, anyway. There's better control, and you're more "with" the bike, with balls of your feet on the pegs.
And you won't be dragging toes and boots.

 

[Sadlsor]

The MSF basic course? That is funny. I may have missed something in those videos but I didn't see much lean angle. Its easy when you don't set up cones to keep you honest. We don't let our officers shift their butt on the seat. The reason you are having to compensate by moving around on the seat is because you keep dipping your inside shoulder and you're not keeping your weight to the outside. Keep your shoulders straight, turn your head in the direction you want to turn, and don't dip your shoulder and you won't have to shift on your seat like you do.
<SNIP>

I can't speak to the videos, as I haven't watched them.
Interestingly, in the MSF Basic RiderCourse, we no longer suggest moving your butt, only counterweighting with your upper body in the slow, tight turns. (Until a couple years ago, the MSF DID offer sliding your bumpus if you were struggling with turning inside the boundaries.) But remember, insofar as the BRC is concerned, this is a course designed for BEGINNING riders, and Exercise 9, often called "U-turns in a box", is merely to help the novice rider control the bike at slow speeds.
All your points about dipping your shoulder, etc., ARE valid points, but there is also such a thing as information overload, so it's a mistake trying to tell a student rider EVERYthing we know. It would be overwhelming for most people.
And as adult learning principles, we offer guidance and tips with the objectives of the lesson, and allow them to try for themselves what works best for them. Some are comfortable leaning the bike more than others, so counterweighting can help them. Others are more comfortable with a little more speed, so counterweighting isn't as helpful, while there are those that have excellent balance and clutch / throttle control, so they may go very slowly with minimal lean at all.
However, in many offroad / dualsport / adventure trainings, they're all about shifting your butt and your hips, but they also are often standing, which is not part of a street course. But the adventure bike classes also are not for outright beginning riders, and assume you are proficient with basic street skills already.
I would like to take some of the police motor scout training on my ST.

 

[dduelin]

The MSF basic course? That is funny. I may have missed something in those videos but I didn't see much lean angle. Its easy when you don't set up cones to keep you honest. We don't let our officers shift their butt on the seat. The reason you are having to compensate by moving around on the seat is because you keep dipping your inside shoulder and you're not keeping your weight to the outside. Keep your shoulders straight, turn your head in the direction you want to turn, and don't dip your shoulder and you won't have to shift on your seat like you do. Shifting your weight on the seat is for track days when you're dragging a knee and your speed and lean angle are surpassing the ability of the tire to adhere to the surface it is traveling across, but you already knew that

Painted lines inside edge to inside edge at 8 feet keep me honest enough for my purposes and picking a sloping parking lot with concrete parking bumpers forming one end of the box keeps it interesting. I look forward to seeing your one handed video on a slope up against concrete that is unforgiving.

I'm not a motor officer and am self taught beyond the ERC and FL's SMART rider course. It's unlikely I'll take a police rider course and compete on timed courses but I'll take your expert criticism with a smile and thank you for your service to your community.

Returning to topic It's my opinion that my RT is much easier to ride in tight maneuvers than my ST was.

 

[mcarver351]

I can't speak to the videos, as I haven't watched them.
Interestingly, in the MSF Basic RiderCourse, we no longer suggest moving your butt, only counterweighting with your upper body in the slow, tight turns. (Until a couple years ago, the MSF DID offer sliding your bumpus if you were struggling with turning inside the boundaries.) But remember, insofar as the BRC is concerned, this is a course designed for BEGINNING riders, and Exercise 9, often called "U-turns in a box", is merely to help the novice rider control the bike at slow speeds.
All your points about dipping your shoulder, etc., ARE valid points, but there is also such a thing as information overload, so it's a mistake trying to tell a student rider EVERYthing we know. It would be overwhelming for most people.
And as adult learning principles, we offer guidance and tips with the objectives of the lesson, and allow them to try for themselves what works best for them. Some are comfortable leaning the bike more than others, so counterweighting can help them. Others are more comfortable with a little more speed, so counterweighting isn't as helpful, while there are those that have excellent balance and clutch / throttle control, so they may go very slowly with minimal lean at all.
However, in many offroad / dualsport / adventure trainings, they're all about shifting your butt and your hips, but they also are often standing, which is not part of a street course. But the adventure bike classes also are not for outright beginning riders, and assume you are proficient with basic street skills already.
I would like to take some of the police motor scout training on my ST.

I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, our officers get one chance at passing the course. They have three tests days and if they fail any part there is no remediation. It is very intense and information overload as well as body fatigue are all part of it. It is a little easier now that the bikes have hydraulic clutches unlike the old cable clutches. ABS is also a benefit today but we still teach threshold braking in the event of an ABS failure. I wish we could offer civilian classes to those interested in perfecting their skills.