New brake problem - Help!

[BakerBoy]

Bill your collars look like correct orientation to me, but it looks like the left one isn't seated as deeply as I'd expect (could just be an illusion on your pics). Pics of mine from a few minutes ago:

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I took a stack picture of the right and left front brakes...your's look similar, but I can't be sure from the pics. You should see a very short amount of the piston sticking out of the caliper (about 1mm-2mm), and it should be very clean if they did the right job on it. You can see one of the pistons on mine (it is brass colored to the right of the right pad in the first picture below).

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Based on what you're describing... If it were mine, I'd push each caliper by hand (after making sure the piston appears clean) towards the rim. It may require a bit of force and jostling, but each should move a little for you. (They're made to move left to right slightly, called floating, to deal with the pad wear.) Then spin the wheel....you should not hear any brake pad drag once you do this. If that cleared the 'rub', then I'd be looking into why the calipers aren't 'floating' on the discs.

 

[stgolfer]

I think you may be right. I'll probably flush them on Monday. Hopefully that will solve it.

 

[stgolfer]

John - Thanks for the pictures. I'll try that in the morning when I have a little more room and a little more light to work with.

 

[ChucksKLRST]

Baker Boy, Do you think his left collar is in back wards? Cant tell from the picture.

 

[BakerBoy]

No I don't think it's backwards .... it looks like it may not be properly seated fully though. (I just can't tell from the pic). But if so, that could push the front wheel slightly to the right, making the left disc rub against the right brakepad (in the left caliper). It's a long shot, but hard to tell from the pics.

 

[coreyasl]

Since I'm not too far from you, I'm curious where did you take the bike in for the repair?

 

[George]

Yet another example of the need to DIY! Hope ya get it straightened out with no damage, and a call t the service manager for refund on Monday! Be sure to show him what ya had to do fix their screw up.

"That's how the ST is supposed to work." :rocket1: (Hey, what happened to the BS flag?)

 

[JoeP]

After finding my buddy's rear brake installed wrong by looking at mine, I decided mine were way over due for a change. I changed them yesterday and bled the whole system last night. I finished putting mine back together today and have the exact problem discussed here.

My answer to the above is:

1. Spacers are installed "correctly" (not sure if you saw my self-induced dilemma by installing the left one backward, won't do that again, ever) and on correct sides.

2. I can tap the calipers and the wheel will spins freely.

3. Fluid level is correct (just above the "LOW" line).

4. I cleaned the pistons thoroughly on both calipers before installing the new pads. They appear to be in the correct position when I let the brake off.

I took the brake pads back off with the thought that they might be thicker than OEMs (trash truck took away the package and old pads this morning so can't put them back on and don't know the brand of the pads (bought at Maxim Honda in Allen, Tx)) and removed the metal anti-rattle plates from behind the pads.

I put the calipers back on and spun the wheel freely, then applied the brake and spun it again. It spun 1/2 turn. I tapped on both calipers with the rubber handle of a hammer and they spin freely. I applied brakes, and the same problem.

I am about to think the after market pads are too thick, but I'm not 100% on that either.

Does anyone know the thickness of a new OEM pad? I'll by a digital caliper Link, tomorrow and measure the after-market pads.


EDIT/UPDATE:
I have a set of calipers with brake lines, SMC, etc. off of a wrecked bike. The OEM pads were on them. I removed the after market pads (Bike Master) and put the OEM's on, pumped the brake and gave it a spin. Same problem exists.

 

[Igofar]

Another fine example of dealership service at its best
I'm guessing the service department did nothing in the way of cleaning the calipers. I'll bet they just forced the pistons back into the housing dirt and all.
I'll even go one further, and bet they didn't even open the master cylinder to check the fluids. Probably WAY over full.
I'd have someone on the fourm who lives close by, help you remove ALL the pads, clean the pins, clean the pistons (see Melow's article), and then bleed the entire brake system, by the book, including the PCV valve, caliper tilt, etc.
I'd make sure the pads are IN the slots (clips) correctly, and the hanger pins are lubed with antiseaze.
I'd also check the wheel bearings for damage, and make sure the axles have grease on them.
I'd also check the rear splines for Moly paste if they removed the rear wheel as well.
I'll bet if everything is cleaned, bled, and assembled correctly, your problem will go away.
I can't comment on the aftermarket brake pads, as I always use OEM pads.
I've seen several bikes come through my garage after the dealerships installed (3) sets of front pads all around.
The front and rear are different.
I'm sorry you had to deal with a stupid service department jerk.
I just went out and spun both my wheels, the front wheel goes 2-3 turns, while the rear spins about 2 full turns.
I'd report the service tech to Mother honda and relay his comments about how the wheel isn't suppose to turn etc.
I only wished you lived near me so I could fix your bike for you. Of course my service charge for bikes that the dealerships have already
worked on would be a piece of pie and a handshake.
Igofar

 

[Scooter]

Does anyone know the thickness of a new OEM pad? I'll by a digital caliper Link, tomorrow and measure the after-market pads.

Go to this thread for your answer. Be aware that BakerBoy is breathing thinner air which might explain the difference in measurements between our brake pads...

 

[BakerBoy]

Go to this thread for your answer. Be aware that BakerBoy is breathing thinner air which might explain the difference in measurements between our brake pads...

Plausible.

 

[Kevin_56]

Baker Boy, Do you think his left collar is in back wards? Cant tell from the picture.

It is real easy to get it reversed. It will cause extra drag and destroy the seal. I know, I did it a few years back. Should not cause the excess heat on the rotors, but that extra drag for sure.

Kevin

 

[acedantinne]

Brake pad thickness has nothing to do with the problem. The brake caliper will adjust automactictly for this. like when the brake pads wear. Ebc pads are cut a little wider and run/hit the worn rotor in a different grove, (so to speak). That high spot on the rotor is causing the problem. Run your finger tip across the rotor. Does your rotor have a lip? outer & inner where the oem pads touched. Look and see if the ebc hit the rotor just slight on that lip/high area. 03 with some miles should be a worn area on the rotors.
Sorry, I'm better at doing/ showing than typing.
Had this brake pad problems many X with non oem pads. all bikes hd,to hondas, last 1 a yam.
If u could surface cut the rotor like we did with cages wouldnt be problem.
Added= rotors are throw aways on todays vehicles.

 

[acedantinne]

1 more thing. read some where remove that copper looking spacer to make room? That is a heat sink material used to transfer the heat from the brake pad to the caliper. helps the brake pads run cooler. such the holes cut in it. spacer would be solid.
keep your calipers clean. brush them off. were the pads touch.

 

[NorCalBusa]

I'd bleed brakes anytime I changed pads (and then some), so that sounds like a logical next step in any regard. Plenty of folks can give you a hand.

BTW- HH sintered do make more (and different- I dig the sound when applied) noise than OE pads at rest and when applied. Its the drag at rest that's not ok.

But...I'd put all this back on the shop that did the work. Be nice, get to the owner (not manager) and have your history lined up. Its a business decision- do they want to send you down the road with the chance of a catastrophic event, with you bad mouthing them (today) to everyone you see, have you go to a known great dealership to get it right and have you then have a visit in small claims? Or simply apologize and fix it as they should have the first and second time? I'd be clear they have one more opportunity to fix it, you won't be back a fourth time. Let them pick which one they want...

Brake fluid has not been topped off, though I'm way past due for fluid change. It does look clear, though.

 

[Mellow]

The last time I looked at EBC vs OEM pads the fronts were about the same thickness but the rear pads were thicker for the OEM pads.

Just changing out the pads shouldn't cause all this grief.. heck, you don't even have to remove the wheels, you can do it just removing the small retaining screw, but it is good to remove the wheel and pads so you can clean the pistons while you're at it.... I wonder if they seated them, JoeP_Dallas had that problem with his friend's ST in this post.

 

[stgolfer]

All calipers are floating, at least a little - maybe a mm or so. It DID make a difference in drag, but after applying the brakes again, (with more lever movement), I was back to 1/4-1/2 turn.

Next I removed the lid for the upper resevoir. As soon as I cracked the first screw, brake fluid started oozing out. Fortunately, I wrapped it up first. Way too much fluid! I removed fluid to about halfway between upper and lower lines and replaced. Fluid needs flushing, but really didn't look too bad.

Next I checked the rear resevoir and found it barely at the lower level line and looked pretty nasty. I topped off and then went for a ride. Same scraping noise - almost a buzzing. Came home and checked wheel movement and it was maybe slightly more free, but not really.

I'm thinking about doing a brake flush, caliper cleaning and maybe replacing the wheel bearings. Any local source for the bearings? Or are they bike specific?

All pads are seated properly.

 

[Mellow]

Bob may be right that it's just going to take some time for the new pads to wear into the grooves the old pads created in the rotors. When I replace pads, yes after applying the brakes it seems like they are too tight and the wheel will barely spin, like yours, however with time it gets better.

The EBCs I used on my Wing would always be noisier than the OEMs. Not gonna hurt at all to flush the fluid that's for sure.

 

[BakerBoy]

Now that you've confirmed the calipers will float, but that the pads still drag after applying brakes, you've probably identified the biggest issue Bill (the cleaning of the pistons and brake fluid bleed).

Doesn't sound like bearings are needed, but Honda shops will have them and a number of auto parts stores should be able to order them. They're standard 6205UU bearings (UU representing double sealed, preloaded with grease). Item 20 in the fiche linked below.

If you've any nicks in the dust seals (located just inboard of the collars), you should replace them (those are Honda-specific). Item 21 in the fiche.

Fiche with part numbers is linked here: http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/1/Make/Honda/YearID/44/Year/2003/ModelID/7127/Model/ST1300A/GroupID/308504/Group/FRONT_WHEEL

 

[NorCalBusa]

"Looking" at brake fluid is telling only if it is off color (gets "tan") or polluted, but it won't tell you how much moisture it has absorbed hygroscopicly. Go by time/mileage instead, its cheap insurance.