Sourcing a part (SMC) and not having to pay my liver..!!

[Willsmotorcycle]

@Willsmotorcycle
Will, is that is your wheel in the photos that you posted above? It looks like it has a slight bend to it at the 12:00 position in the photos.

It is and I will check now, thank you Andrew.

 

[SMSW]

It is and I will check now, thank you Andrew.

I agree... the rim looks like it's bent, but it might be because of the angled photo.

Back to the brakes, Will, your wheel and caliper are cleaner than most. Whatever happened to wiping the pistons with a shoelace soaked in brake fluid before pushing them into the caliper? Were you just trying to keep it simple?

 

[The Dark Shadow]

@Willsmotorcycle
Will, is that your wheel in the photos that you posted above? It looks like it has a slight bend to it at the 12:00 position in the photos.

I was gonna comment the same.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

I did notice farting around with the rear caliper, that if I push it around a bit and pull it somewhat away from the wheel, the wheel will spin more freely. Should the caliper unit move on its front mounting bolt, or should it be relatively stationary...? I understand now that these brake pads (all brakes, for all I know) have only one slider bolt, with an indent in the front to hold them in position. The slider bolt seems to still be dirty, and not greased, so I wonder if my local guy missed that.

So, should I grease this slider bolt...?

Should the front mounting bolt yield some movement in the full caliper unit...??

What is "rubber grease" versus "rubber silicone grease" versus "red rubber grease"...? All the same thing...?? Can I find a heat tolerant "rubber grease" that can be a one-grease-does-all for the metal retainer clip (that holds the front end of the pad plate), the caliper slider pin, and the pad slider pin, as well as the back side of the pads...? And, can this same grease be used on the pistons?

For those like me who are in Canada, can you suggest a specific product or products to use for greasing the parts mentioned: pistons after cleaning, lubing the slider pins, retainer clip, and greasing the backs of the pads as per the "Avoiding the Pitfalls" document...??

And it seems like I shouldn't just open the bleeder nozzles unless I have some tubing hooked up, eh...?

Thanks eh!

 

[Willsmotorcycle]

I agree... the rim looks like it's bent, but it might be because of the angled photo.

Back to the brakes, Will, your wheel and caliper are cleaner than most. Whatever happened to wiping the pistons with a shoelace soaked in brake fluid before pushing them into the caliper? Were you just trying to keep it simple?

Truth be told... I just washed it "thoroughly" for the first time back from AK, although I am a firm believer that a clean bike is a happy bike.

Have you ever tried to thread a wet shoelace in situ. The way I understood it he needed to swap new pads for new OEM pads. I also left out cracking the rear bleeder before pushing in the pistons, KIS. For the record, Its exactly how I swapped mine out last month before Woodstock, two minutes, with a beer brake.

 

[Willsmotorcycle]

I did notice farting around with the rear caliper, that if I push it around a bit and pull it somewhat away from the wheel, the wheel will spin more freely. Should the caliper unit move on its front mounting bolt, or should it be relatively stationary...? I understand now that these brake pads (all brakes, for all I know) have only one slider bolt, with an indent in the front to hold them in position. The slider bolt seems to still be dirty, and not greased, so I wonder if my local guy missed that.

So, should I grease this slider bolt...?

Should the front mounting bolt yield some movement in the full caliper unit...??

What is "rubber grease" versus "rubber silicone grease" versus "red rubber grease"...? All the same thing...?? Can I find a heat tolerant "rubber grease" that can be a one-grease-does-all for the metal retainer clip (that holds the front end of the pad plate), the caliper slider pin, and the pad slider pin, as well as the back side of the pads...? And, can this same grease be used on the pistons?

For those like me who are in Canada, can you suggest a specific product or products to use for greasing the parts mentioned: pistons after cleaning, lubing the slider pins, retainer clip, and greasing the backs of the pads as per the "Avoiding the Pitfalls" document...??

And it seems like I shouldn't just open the bleeder nozzles unless I have some tubing hooked up, eh...?

Thanks eh!

Change the pads, see where you are, then add the details.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Truth be told... I just washed it "thoroughly" for the first time back from AK, although I am a firm believer that a clean bike is a happy bike.

Have you ever tried to thread a wet shoelace in situ. The way I understood it he needed to swap new pads for new OEM pads. I also left out cracking the rear bleeder before pushing in the pistons, KIS. For the record, Its exactly how I swapped mine out last month before Woodstock, two minutes, with a beer brake.

"cracking the bleeder"... You mean opening it, I'm guessing...

So, if I don't have a vacuum unit and hose, I shouldn't open the bleeder for the certainty of having air enter the system...?? Or brake fluid drip all over that area...??

If this is the case, damn... there's a reason I get people to do work I'm not expert on...

Your 2 minute change... Did it involve hoses and non-reverse flow valves and vacuum pumps...??

 

[Willsmotorcycle]

"cracking the bleeder"... You mean opening it, I'm guessing...

So, if I don't have a vacuum unit and hose, I shouldn't open the bleeder for the certainty of having air enter the system...?? Or brake fluid drip all over that area...??

If this is the case, damn... there's a reason I get people to do work I'm not expert on...

Your 2 minute change... Did it involve hoses and non-reverse flow valves and vacuum pumps...??

Yes cracking is slightly opening.
No, It involved exactly as I outlined in the photos (save the beer break). Changing the rear pads involves nothing more or less.

You can always add steps, get a vacuum pump, get some brake fluid. Start cracking bleeders, swap out some brake lines and turn it into the job you thought you had no way of doing, or just swap the pads and see if it solves the sticking. Smart money is on the SMC, problem for another day.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Yes cracking is slightly opening.
No, It involved exactly as I outlined in the photos (save the beer break). Changing the rear pads involves nothing more or less.

You can always add steps, get a vacuum pump, get some brake fluid. Start cracking bleeders, swap out some brake lines and turn it into the job you thought you had no way of doing, or just swap the pads and see if it solves the sticking. Smart money is on the SMC, problem for another day.

2x SMCs are on their way from Japan...

 

[TotaledTL]

Truth be told... I just washed it "thoroughly" for the first time back from AK, although I am a firm believer that a clean bike is a happy bike.

Have you ever tried to thread a wet shoelace in situ. The way I understood it he needed to swap new pads for new OEM pads. I also left out cracking the rear bleeder before pushing in the pistons, KIS. For the record, Its exactly how I swapped mine out last month before Woodstock, two minutes, with a beer brake.

Please, show us your beer brake.

 

[TotaledTL]

Truth be told... I just washed it "thoroughly" for the first time back from AK, although I am a firm believer that a clean bike is a happy bike.

Have you ever tried to thread a wet shoelace in situ. The way I understood it he needed to swap new pads for new OEM pads. I also left out cracking the rear bleeder before pushing in the pistons, KIS. For the record, Its exactly how I swapped mine out last month before Woodstock, two minutes, with a beer brake.

Is opening the bleeder necessary if there is sufficient space in the resv. for the fluid to go?

 

[Willsmotorcycle]

Is opening the bleeder necessary if there is sufficient space in the resv. for the fluid to go?

The way Igofar explained it, instead of pushing any dirty fluid back in, just let it out. This situation I understand as everything (fluid and pads) is new, just swapping rear pads.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I did notice farting around with the rear caliper, that if I push it around a bit and pull it somewhat away from the wheel, the wheel will spin more freely. Should the caliper unit move on its front mounting bolt, or should it be relatively stationary...?

Yes, it should be free to move fairly easily if the brake pads and pistons were not restraining it. As an exaggeration to make the point, if the pistons were fully retracted and the pads were not installed, you should be able to easily slide the caliper back and forth along the sliders with minimal hand force.

I understand now that these brake pads (all brakes, for all I know) have only one slider bolt, with an indent in the front to hold them in position. The slider bolt seems to still be dirty, and not greased, so I wonder if my local guy missed that.

I think that you are mixing up terminology. Are you referring to item #18 in the below diagram? If so, this is the hanger pin. This pin goes through the eyelets in the rear of the pads to hold them in place. This is not a slider pin.

There are two slider pins on which the caliper can move in and out relative to the brake disc. They are items # 13 and 14. They must be clean and have a light coating of silicone grease applied to them, as should the rubber parts that they fit in to.

So, should I grease this slider bolt...?

The O-ring on the end of that pin, and its receptacle, should be clean and lubricated with rubber friendly brake grease. The body of this pin should be clean and free of scale so that the pads can slide on it, but I do not apply grease to it because it only causes the brake dust and road grime to stick to it making things worse.

What is "rubber grease" versus "rubber silicone grease" versus "red rubber grease"...? All the same thing...??

Yes, all the same. Go to your local auto parts store and ask them for silicone brake grease for the rubber parts of the braking system. They will know what you are looking for. Automotive brake grease and motorcycle brake grease are the same. One can is not expensive and it will last your life-time.

Can I find a heat tolerant "rubber grease" that can be a one-grease-does-all for the metal retainer clip (that holds the front end of the pad plate), the caliper slider pin, and the pad slider pin, as well as the back side of the pads...? And, can this same grease be used on the pistons?

The brake pad springs and retainers clips should not have grease applied to them for the same reason as above- it causes the brake dust and road grime to stick to them making things worse. If they are in bad shape, replace them. I know that John recommends it in his document, but that it because he is battling specific UK road environmental conditions that wreak havoc on exposed metal. Honda does not call for grease in these areas. If any lubricant is applied it can't be silicone grease as it will not survive there. Brake anti-seize for the metal parts of braking systems can be used if you feel the need. Again, your local auto parts will have it. I do not apply anything.
I do not apply anything to the back of the brake pads either. Again, just collects the dirt and grime. I have never felt the need for it.
The exposed part of the pistons can be greased with the same silicone brake grease.

The other chemical that John mentions is to adhere the pad retainers to the caliper body. This is not a grease, it is a rubber adhesive that adheres the retainer to the caliper body.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Yes, it should be free to move fairly easily if the brake pads and pistons were not restraining it. As an exaggeration to make the point, if the pistons were fully retracted and the pads were not installed, you should be able to easily slide the caliper back and forth along the sliders with minimal hand force.

I think that you are mixing up terminology. Are you referring to item #18 in the below diagram? If so, this is the hanger pin. This pin goes through the eyelets in the rear of the pads to hold them in place. This is not a slider pin.

There are two slider pins on which the caliper can move in and out relative to the brake disc. They are items # 13 and 14. They must be clean and have a light coating of silicone grease applied to them, as should the rubber parts that they fit in to.

The O-ring on the end of that pin, and its receptacle, should be clean and lubricated with rubber friendly brake grease. The body of this pin should be clean and free of scale so that the pads can slide on it, but I do not apply grease to it because it only causes the brake dust and road grime to stick to it making things worse.

Yes, all the same. Go to your local auto parts store and ask them for silicone brake grease for the rubber parts of the braking system. They will know what you are looking for. Automotive brake grease and motorcycle brake grease are the same. One can is not expensive and it will last your life-time.

The brake pad springs and retainers clips should not have grease applied to them for the same reason as above- it causes the brake dust and road grime to stick to them making things worse. If they are in bad shape, replace them. I know that John recommends it in his document, but that it because he is battling specific UK road environmental conditions that wreak havoc on exposed metal. Honda does not call for grease in these areas. If any lubricant is applied it can't be silicone grease as it will not survive there. Brake anti-seize for the metal parts of braking systems can be used if you feel the need. Again, your local auto parts will have it. I do not apply anything.
I do not apply anything to the back of the brake pads either. Again, just collects the dirt and grime. I have never felt the need for it.
The exposed part of the pistons can be greased with the same silicone brake grease.

The other chemical that John mentions is to adhere the pad retainers to the caliper body. This is not a grease, it is a rubber adhesive that adheres the retainer to the caliper body.

Thanks again. Yes, you're right... Hangar pin vs. slider pin. Glad to have this pointed out to me!

To summarize, possibly 3 products to use: silicone grease (main grease), brake anti-seize (heat resistant!), and "rubber adhesive" (if one decides it is worth it to use this... is it optional... ie: does the retainer clip "clip in" to the caliper body?).

Since I'm right next to the water and often have sea fog (like about 1/3rd of the year!!) it seems like I drive in similar conditions to John. Hence, I lean towards a similar approach as he uses. I do understand that any exposed grease/lube will grab hold of road grime and brake dust like a magnet, however, it seems logical as John has written that the grease will encase the parts and help this road grime from actually contacting the parts aimed for protection. I like that idea.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

To summarize, possibly 3 products to use: silicone grease (main grease), brake anti-seize (heat resistant!), and "rubber adhesive" (if one decides it is worth it to use this... is it optional... ie: does the retainer clip "clip in" to the caliper body?).

Correct, with the caveat that we, or least I, am not entirely certain of the purpose of cementing the retainer clips in place other than for the reasons that John has speculated in his document. As such, I am in no position to offer an answer about this that has any authority behind it.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

By the way, somewhere early on in one of your threads I suggested that you check the bearing and collar that the SMC pivots on. Did you ever do this?
The reason that I am mentioning it again is because if the SMC can not pivot freely the rear brakes can drag. As you saw with the test that I performed, it does not take much force to move the SMC. If this pivot point is binding, the brake force certainly has enough energy behind it to force the SMC to move regardless of how much it is binding. However, the return spring in the SMC may not be strong enough to overcome the binding and push the SMC back to the fully relaxed position. If this pivot point is seized, even a new SMC will not work properly.

I have fixed ST1300 dragging rear brakes by simply servicing this pivot point. I could not move the SMC by hand so I knew that this pivot was binding. All I did was I took it apart and cleaned and re-lubricated the bearing and collar so that they could freely pivot. This allowed the SMC to freely return to the relaxed position and solved the dragging rear brake problem. Nothing else was done to the braking system other than this.

Item #23 below is the SMC lower attachment screw. Item #19 is the collar. This collar installs through a needle bearing in the left fork leg and is what the SMC pivots on- see second diagram.



Below is the lower section of the left fork leg where the SMC attaches.
Item #1 below is the collar- #19 above. Item #2 is a dust seal, item #25 is the needle bearing.

 

[Sadlsor]

That's a really, really, REALLY good point, @Andrew and that pivot point is often overlooked.
In the first diagram and again in the second, there's a small disk without a visible number, it's in the upper left corner... point is, I seem to recall that is a fibrous (cork or similar) washer is part of the left lower fork leg that can wear out but I think is built into the fork and can't actually be replaced by itself.
The one in the diagrams may not be the piece I'm thinking of, but it does go in that SMC pivot, or is part of it.
Does this ring a bell with anyone?
I remember seeing it when Larry and I replaced my SMC, and I found mine in less than optimal condition. I also remember thinking, "that's a wear item, but it's 'embedded' or 'integral' to the hole in the fork leg."
I explained it quite clumsily...

 

[Obo]

That's a really, really, REALLY good point, @Andrew and that pivot point is often overlooked.
In the first diagram and again in the second, there's a small disk without a visible number, it's in the upper left corner... point is, I seem to recall that is a fibrous (cork or similar) washer is part of the left lower fork leg that can wear out but I think is built into the fork and can't actually be replaced by itself.
The one in the diagrams may not be the piece I'm thinking of, but it does go in that SMC pivot, or is part of it.

Here's the part. Yes mine is chewed up. There's one on the other side too. Fibrous, yes. I too couldn't find it in the fische diagrams.



My lower pivot bolt was also seized into the outer part. It was hard to even tell it should have been 2 parts. I thought it was a shoulder bolt that just went inside hte needle bearings in the fork.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

By the way, somewhere early on in one of your threads I suggested that you check the bearing and collar that the SMC pivots on. Did you ever do this?
The reason that I am mentioning it again is because if the SMC can not pivot freely the rear brakes can drag. As you saw with the test that I performed, it does not take much force to move the SMC. If this pivot point is binding, the brake force certainly has enough energy behind it to force the SMC to move regardless of how much it is binding. However, the return spring in the SMC may not be strong enough to overcome the binding and push the SMC back to the fully relaxed position. If this pivot point is seized, even a new SMC will not work properly.

I have fixed ST1300 dragging rear brakes by simply servicing this pivot point. I could not move the SMC by hand so I knew that this pivot was binding. All I did was I took it apart and cleaned and re-lubricated the bearing and collar so that they could freely pivot. This allowed the SMC to freely return to the relaxed position and solved the dragging rear brake problem. Nothing else was done to the braking system other than this.

Item #23 below is the SMC lower attachment screw. Item #19 is the collar. This collar installs through a needle bearing in the left fork leg and is what the SMC pivots on- see second diagram.



Below is the lower section of the left fork leg where the SMC attaches.
Item #1 below is the collar- #19 above. Item #2 is a dust seal, item #25 is the needle bearing.

It seems like the SMC is pivoting fine, and returning fine. Based upon the pressure amounts you wrote earlier (and taken with the understanding that they might not be perfectly accurate), it seems like mine performs similarly. I hope to have someone help me with the back caliper again tomorrow. As I mentioned in a comment above, there seems to be wiggle room between the pads, but the caliper may not be moving freely on the sliders. I can't change the SMC until the replacements arrive (hopefully by month end). Until then, I can check the back caliper again (sliders may not have been cleaned/freed/lubed) and I'm gonna FWIW try the OEM pads that I have. It is often possible to have multiple issues hidden together. The back caliper may have a small but significant issue, the SMC might be shot, or it could be both... I won't know for sure until I know for sure... I'm not convinced the back caliper is in proper working order, independent of any possible SMC issue.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Here's the part. Yes mine is chewed up. There's one on the other side too. Fibrous, yes. I too couldn't find it in the fische diagrams.



My lower pivot bolt was also seized into the outer part. It was hard to even tell it should have been 2 parts. I thought it was a shoulder bolt that just went inside hte needle bearings in the fork.

The photos are helpful... Thank you. BTW, where are you...?? If you are decent at wrenching, I'd be glad to ride to where you are for some help... I found a guy fishing yesterday who works at Liberty Cycles, and he said he'd help me check out my back caliper... I plan to check/clean/lube the sliders, and check the retainer clip and other bigger clip/spring, as well as changing my new EBC pads to the OEM pads I just got, FWIW...