Test rode a 2010 RT today

[NoBull]

I went on a multiday tour with a bunch of Beemer owners recently, they all love their bikes. When asked they say their bikes are very reliable and never break down. However twice during the weekend it was mentioned that BMWs were very expensive bikes to own and maintain by said owners. I doubt you are gonna beat the Honda for reliabilty, but few deny that the BMW has better handleing, better air management, better suspension. IMHO the Honda is the best bang for the buck, but I lust after a GSA.

 

[BendBill]

Actually, "statistically" the odds are very much in the favor of not having serious problems.

Interestingly enough, BMW reliability is MUCH more of a topic of discussion here than it is on the BMW forums. It's internet fodder to a very large degree.

Your first statement is right on. Most owners will not have a problem.

However, your second statement above is oppposite of my experience on the BMWST board since 2003. Final drive threads pop up all the time. And clutch. And there have been TWO threads about sight glass windows popping out just last week. BMW owners do talk about their problems.

In fact there is a current poll in the 1200 RT folder asking riders about their final drive failure rate. The response has remained at 7% failure for some time, according to the sample, [which is certainly unscientific but it is on a home forum]. And it sheds more light on the issue than BMW Motorrad has ever chosen to do.

I also recall a number of new ST owners who joined this site, as I did, because of BMW unreliability and breakdowns of major components. And one can go to the 2007 IBA rally notes to see their public spanking of BMW's 29% failure rate in that event. Or just goolge the issue: somewhere in the first 10 pages, you'll see the final drive failure registry for BMW, with hundreds of entries, all by BMW riders.

So while there may be internet rumors on all brands, there is also outside verifiable data about BMW's problems.

 

[Judge]

Your first statement is right on. Most owners will not have a problem.

However, your second statement above is oppposite of my experience on the BMWST board since 2003. Final drive threads pop up all the time. And clutch. And there have been TWO threads about sight glass windows popping out just last week. BMW owners do talk about their problems.

In fact there is a current poll in the 1200 RT folder asking riders about their final drive failure rate. The response has remained at 7% failure for some time, according to the sample, [which is certainly unscientific but it is on a home forum]. And it sheds more light on the issue than BMW Motorrad has ever chosen to do.

I also recall a number of new ST owners who joined this site, as I did, because of BMW unreliability and breakdowns of major components. And one can go to the 2007 IBA rally notes to see their public spanking of BMW's 29% failure rate in that event. Or just goolge the issue: somewhere in the first 10 pages, you'll see the final drive failure registry for BMW, with hundreds of entries, all by BMW riders.

So while there may be internet rumors on all brands, there is also outside verifiable data about BMW's problems.

To be fair, there is "verifyable data" on problems with the ST and any other bike as well. I'm certainly not dismissing facts, but I am dismissing the exaggerated hyperbole that some have dispensed suggesting problems are the rule and not the exception.

Of course there are topics specific to mechanical problems on a BMW forum. Just as there is here. The point I was making is that there aren't topics of blatent generalities and disparagement of reliability.

How many times have prospective ST owners come in here asking how credible wobble, heat issues, etc. are relative to the ST? It's the same somewhat misguided perception issue that requires a little perspective.

To that end, ANY forum airs that particular models dirty laundry. I just bought a 2010 Vmax, and guess what? You can find topics relative to mechanical issues, dealer issues, etc.

 

[dduelin]

How many times have prospective ST owners come in here asking how credible wobble, heat issues, etc. are relative to the ST? It's the same somewhat misguided perception issue that requires a little perspective.

When does wobble and heat issues leave you on the side of the road waiting for help?

 

[Judge]

When does wobble and heat issues leave you on the side of the road waiting for help?

Exactly my point. It's about as significant as an overall small percentage of FD failures over the course of several model years.

Here's the bottom line. When another mfg. can make a bike like the RT, I'll be the first in line to have a look at it.

 

[st11ray]

When does wobble and heat issues leave you on the side of the road waiting for help?

Well, a high speed wobble could leave you on the side of the road dead?

 

[dduelin]

Well, a high speed wobble could leave you on the side of the road dead?

Well, it could but in the four years I have been associated with this site members have ridden maybe 10 or 12 million miles on STs according to the mileage log. How many deaths related to wobble in those miles?

 

[BendBill]

To be fair, there is "verifyable data" on problems with the ST and any other bike as well. I'm certainly not dismissing facts, but I am dismissing the exaggerated hyperbole that some have dispensed suggesting problems are the rule and not the exception.

QUOTE]

Ah . . . OK, then. Like you, I would disagree with any ST owner who said that the majority of RTs have problems. The point I wanted to clarify is that not many ST people make those statements. In fact, over the years, I've found ST owners to be overwhelmingly friendly towards BMW, and interested in its newest offerings, positive attention because of BMW's many innovations and model updates, while our ST remains unchanged.

However, the fact remains that RTs' more serious problems do leave riders stranded, while the ST bugs their owners with less catastrophic [ though irritating] issues like coolant leaks, heat, and weight, but lets them finish the ride. There is a big difference in that degree.

According to the most recent 2009 IBA rally, this is one likely reason that some long-time BMW riders switched to the ST or FJR since the 2007 rally, allowing the ST to edge the RT [9-7 among finishers] as a more popular mount, though both are behind the GS [10] FJR [14] and Gold Wing [15].

Also, in that same rally 6 riders of BMW had mechanical problems: 2 were able to finish, 4 were DNF. No STs were DNF for mechanical problems that I read of.

Like many riders, I am interested in BMWs offerings in the GT and new 1600 lines. I learned that twins and dry clutches don?t do it for me. But I could see that 1600 in a few years if it proves to be a durable mount with an engine, clutch, and drive system as consistently rock solid as the ST 1300.

 

[Chance]

you on the side of the road dead?

True... but you won't be waiting for help!

I have to agree with Dduelin.. even with the wobble, haven't ever heard of an accident DUE to the wobble..or heat.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, it could but in the four years I have been associated with this site members have ridden maybe 10 or 12 million miles on STs according to the mileage log. How many deaths related to wobble in those miles?

It has happened (albeit to an authority model with police equipment on board, but probably not too much different with a heavily loaded top case on a civilian model affecting the COG).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6657709.stm

 

[CarSalesman]

Let me tell you my RT story...

I've been a long time ST1100 owner and fan. Got my first one in 1999, and traded to one of the last 2002's to get ABS. Still have it, and will likely have it for a very long time. I also have an 07 R1200GS that I like very much, and have owned several other BMWs in the past. I'm not a fan of any brand, Honda or BMW, just certain models.

After 11 years on ST1100, I've been thinking of a change. I did briefly own a 2003 ST1300 shortly after they first came out, but didn't like it, and sold it after a few weeks. I didn't like the heat, the handling, or the general feel versus the ST11. To each his own. That was quite a few years ago, and since then I've learned a lot about setting up a motorcycle suspension. I'm sure the ST13 was set up all wrong when I had it, so my opinions about the handling and feel were probably incorrect. You can make any bike handle poorly with the wrong settings, but I didn't know that back in 2003.

We had a 2004 K1200LT for two years. It was ok, but felt like we were in a car. No passion.

Several years ago we demo'd an R1150RT. Yuck. Engine was crude, no power. Both my wife and I hated it. Glad we had the ST11.

The engine in the R1200GS is quite different than the 1150. Balance shafts make it much smoother, although its still a twin. I had been thinking that if I could get a bike that rode and handled like my GS, but the body, luggage, and amenities of the ST11, that would be a great combination. Of course ,that's exactly what an R1200RT is.

I began searching for an ST1300 or R1200RT. A new RT comes only in silver or grey, which is not my color (sorry, I know many like it). I found a very nice 2008 RT in Biarritz Blue and bought it. Initial impressions were positive. The RT handles and rides very well (it has ESA), although not up to the Elka suspension I have on the GS. The RT engine has more top end than the GS version of the 1200, and the RT is geared longer (engine turns slower). The RT has good power, but gets into the typical BMW 4500 rpm buzz at about 85mph in top gear. I don't ride much at 85mph, but on the RT, 85 to 90mph feel strained. The power is there, but it isn't enjoyable. Of course, if you get it over 100mph, it feels good again!

My wife did not care for the RT, which was surprising as the RT is noted for passenger comfort. The stock BMW seat is even worse than a stock Honda seat, but we would have replaced it eventually. Coming from the ST11, she didn't like the twin cylinder vibes of the RT. She even commented that it didn't have much "oomph", even though she was riding on the back. Isn't it great when your wife says you need a bike with more power?! On paper the RT has enough power, but when you get 400 pounds of riders and another 50lbs of gear on it, you need the RT in the 5,000 to 7,000 rpm range frequently for good acceleration. At those RPMs, the RT engine is nowhere near as smooth as the ST11. That's what she felt. The ST11 can smoothly loaf along at 3500 rpm with that same load.

About that time I ran into a fellow with a 2009 ST1300 who wanted to sell it quickly. We made a deal, and as soon as I rode it the frist time, I knew it was superior to the RT. The power is smooth and endless. At first I thought the RT handled better, but after tweaking the suspension adjustments on the ST13, they are equal. The surprising thing is the stock ST13 suspension. The stock ST13 suspension is vastly superior to the RT, even compared to the RT with ESA. The ST feels more plush, but also more controlled. You can get good handling in the ESA firm suspension setting, but the ride there is not so good. Even in the ESA Comfort setting, the RT is no match for the ride comfort of the ST13. The vendor that BMW is currently using for shock absorbers, is simply not very good. I understand BMW is changing shock vendors for the 2011 model year. I hope so, for their sake. I have no doubt with a good suspension the RT would be great (my GS with Elka is superb), but as it comes from BMW, the suspension is just not competitive.

Of course there is just no comparison in the engine department. Both the ST11 and ST13 are superior to the R1200RT engine in every respect. Gas mileage is about the same for all three of them, so even that isn't a factor. I can get 50mpg if I'm easy on the gas with any of them, but of course rarely do so!

So, take it from a guy who spent the money for an RT intending for it to be the ultimate 2-up sport tourer. The ST13 is better in most respects, and the ST11 is not obsolete. The RT would be my third choice of the three. Reliability is not a factor in that comparison. I've owned several BMWs, and never had a problem with any of them.

The RT went to a new owner this evening. He has owned many BMWs. I'm sure he will be happy.

Don

 

[dduelin]

It has happened (albeit to an authority model with police equipment on board, but probably not too much different with a heavily loaded top case on a civilian model affecting the COG).

Are you saying one death in many millions of miles of operation is patently unsafe or was this an isolated though tragic accident? The temporary ban in the UK was lifted 5 years ago and many fleets operate ST1300s in law enforcement to this day.

To the point is there any history of incidents, accidents, or deaths attributed to ST1300 wobble or weave in the millions upon millions of miles ridden? Recalls, calls or recall, or other investigations? I think you know the answer.

On the other hand, we know that there is a FD failure rate that approaches 5% in late model BMW motorcycles. If you are a BMWMOA member you have read the articles and letters in Owners News on this subject. The monthly feature about an owners first BMW in the last month or two had just such an article about a $2000 out of warranty repair. It is well known and discussed but taken as an acceptable risk in the community of the roundel. After all, 5% failure means 95 owners have no problem. On the other hand, other manufacturers deliver a product with statistically zero failure rate in their drive trains. BMW has had 87 years to get what is really a simple mechanism right and hasn't done it yet. To a company that prides itself on innovative design and clever engineering it would seem to be unacceptable. They know it and continue to deny it yet often continue to cover repairs under goodwill.

 

[Chris Parker]

Are you saying one death in many millions of miles of operation is patently unsafe or was this an isolated though tragic accident? The temporary ban in the UK was lifted 5 years ago and many fleets operate ST1300s in law enforcement to this day.

Hey, I was just answering your question about any incident involving a weave or wobble... which was determined to be the case in the death of the officer in the U.K. verified by the accident report and also the eyewitness testimony of the officer following right behind him at the time of the accident. And to your query about whether there has been any documented accident on the ST1300 due to a weave or not... how the heck can you know? In the 8 years of production of the bike worldwide, has there been a fatality on the ST in those intervening years? Or turn it around, on the BMW. I don't know with certainty and neither do you. I would hazard to guess, but it would just be that... a guess.

Look, the debate over the RT and BMWs in general as to having a problem with the final drive will not be solved here. Only with owning one day in and day out can you answer that question, or know someone who has had a problem or not. I have a friend who had a problem, and about 25 or more that have not. I have owned three BMWs with combined mileage of over 130,000 miles and no problem over the three generations (1100, 1150, and now 1200RT).

And guess what? If I do have a drive failure, I won't be happy (who is?), especially if it leaves me stranded. But it will get fixed and I will be riding again. I just love the bike too much to let the remote chance of a mechanical failure keep me from riding it. And so far, at just 50,000 miles on my 06, it has worked exactly like day one. Fits me like a glove man.

And that is all that matters.

 

[Bones]

Fits me like a glove man.

And that is all that matters.

Chris sums it up for us all: ride what you like.

 

[Judge]

To be fair, there is "verifyable data" on problems with the ST and any other bike as well. I'm certainly not dismissing facts, but I am dismissing the exaggerated hyperbole that some have dispensed suggesting problems are the rule and not the exception.

QUOTE]

Ah . . . OK, then. Like you, I would disagree with any ST owner who said that the majority of RTs have problems. The point I wanted to clarify is that not many ST people make those statements. In fact, over the years, I've found ST owners to be overwhelmingly friendly towards BMW, and interested in its newest offerings, positive attention because of BMW's many innovations and model updates, while our ST remains unchanged.

However, the fact remains that RTs' more serious problems do leave riders stranded, while the ST bugs their owners with less catastrophic [ though irritating] issues like coolant leaks, heat, and weight, but lets them finish the ride. There is a big difference in that degree.

According to the most recent 2009 IBA rally, this is one likely reason that some long-time BMW riders switched to the ST or FJR since the 2007 rally, allowing the ST to edge the RT [9-7 among finishers] as a more popular mount, though both are behind the GS [10] FJR [14] and Gold Wing [15].

Also, in that same rally 6 riders of BMW had mechanical problems: 2 were able to finish, 4 were DNF. No STs were DNF for mechanical problems that I read of.

Like many riders, I am interested in BMWs offerings in the GT and new 1600 lines. I learned that twins and dry clutches don?t do it for me. But I could see that 1600 in a few years if it proves to be a durable mount with an engine, clutch, and drive system as consistently rock solid as the ST 1300.

Fine, but I still think your opinion on it is a tad on the cursory side. The failure rate on the FD's going back to around 2005 is anywhere from 3-5%. This means 95% or more of owners have been trouble free.

Based on that, I looked into why or what might be causing the failures? Well, until 2008 BMW declared the FD's required no fluid changes. Then there were changes to internals, and more recently a change in fluid level reccomendations. Low and behold, the relatively small percentage of FD failures have been on the decline.

My point is that there are some particulars that are very worthy of conideration, and some/many read about FD failure on the internet, and right away it's gospel.

Believe me, I very much wish FD failures never happened. However, I'm sure Getrag or ZF is probably suppling these, and built them in a large production run. Hence the majority of problems were spread out over a few years, and it has required some changes. Meanwhile, it's cost them some public perception, though I don't believe it's completely justified.

Over the course of many bikes, I've had my share of issues...yes even with Honda. Front brake calipers flying off my Interceptor, burned out valves at less than 20k, charging system failures.

That being said, these "problems" should all be taken with an extra large grain of salt.

Again, when someone else can build a sub 600lb ST bike on par with what the RT does, I'll be in line for a look.

 

[dduelin]

Fits me like a glove man.

And that is all that matters.

+1

Ride on - I hope we meet on the road someday. You weren't by chance at the BRR two weekends ago?

 

[Chris Parker]

+1

Ride on - I hope we meet on the road someday. You weren't by chance at the BRR two weekends ago?

Dave, nope, I was not up there.... but will be heading up to Iron Horse in Stecoah with my riding buddies this Friday-Sunday... anyone in the area is welcome to ride with us.

When you are up this way... send me an email and we can get together for a ride.

 

[rosast1300]

Rode my friend's 1150 RT 2002 and it was uner whelming. LIke many posters before mentioned the engine felt weak in comparison. I think BMW gets it when it comes to options and simple comfort. My two cents is that Honda is certainly comparable in engineering to BMW, but they seem to lack the pizaaz and spice Beemers offer. As an ST owner I totally get it. I just wish we could get more options!

 

[Judge]

Rode my friend's 1150 RT 2002 and it was uner whelming. LIke many posters before mentioned the engine felt weak in comparison. I think BMW gets it when it comes to options and simple comfort. My two cents is that Honda is certainly comparable in engineering to BMW, but they seem to lack the pizaaz and spice Beemers offer. As an ST owner I totally get it. I just wish we could get more options!

HUGE difference in performance from the old 1150 to the 1200 heaxheads and DOHC's.

BMW has the new DOHC boxer dialed in very nicely, and it's comperable in acceleration to the ST. Once off idle, it's really a smooth runner compared to the old 1150's as well. The 1200 got a balance shaft when it made it's debut, and the 2010 RT's have rubber bushings at the bar mounts to further isolate engine vibrations.

One of the nicest and smoothest twins I've ever experienced was the DL1000 Vstrom. I can say without hesitation that the new DOHC boxer is better in all areas.

 

[Da Ace]

Judge you call it the way you see it....and good for you.
My opinion on the other hand is very different.
I went to buy me my BMW RT and after a two hour test ride: I was not impressed..
My missus didn't like the bikes gear changes and buffeting.
She felt unsure on the back....
I was seriously unhappy as I thought I had lost the ability to ride.
The bike handled vaguely and I wasn't sure of the front end.
Not to mention the idiotic indication system...(believe that BM has seen the error of their ways..the whole world dose it the same way! But it's not safe...)
I was also unhappy as I had to go an look at that Honda tourer after this episode!!!!
Got to Honda, but the ST they had didn't have any fuel/gas in the tank so I would have to ride about half a mile to fill it.
Whilst they were filling it the wife says to me," do we need to go for the ride." That wasn't a question. It was a fact!
There is the world of difference between the two bikes.
I have had 2 ST1300's and they do everything well enough, especially when 2 up and fully loaded or pulling a 6ft trailer!!!
My Conclusion is that here in SA, BM riders pay a lot to impress them selves...
The GS range is very popular here, but most never see the dirt...
May be when there's enough money I would buy one of these to ride in the dirt (after a proper test ride)
Only one thing: Why have a single sided swing-arm when you're not racing...makes no sense.
Most people still come up to the ST and say what a nice B..M..???? er Honda...
And so here it's not a common bike and thus you stand out more.(he-he!)
We should agree on one thing....
Do whatever floats your boat and just don't try an impress others with your decision, do it for yourself...
I even do wheelies etc when no one is watching....:grin::grin::grin:
PS rode with two other guys on RT1200's the other day.
WE filled up at the same places and rode the same speeds (except when they wanted to race...Left them far behind), but my bike used much less fuel than theirs....?
Why would that be? The ST has 4 cylinders...?
Ja so enjoy your BMer Judge, but judge us lesser mere mortals not!:capwin:

PS: The Trailer...