Motor oil

[Andrew Shadow]

Like I said, I wonder if its different in Canada?

No, Rotella T6 it is the same everywhere. It has never had JASO MA certification, and it still does not.

I agree with you 100% that it was NEVER certified (kind of dishonest and misleading if you ask me)
But the print of the bottle(s) here stateside are still confusing folks.

Of course it is dishonest, misleading and confusing. That is why they do it, that is what creative marketing is. It is labeled that way so that people will think that it meets requirements that it doesn't, while at the same time thay can't be held responsible because they do not claim anywhere that it does have JASO MA certification. If the consumer uses it believing that it does, it can easily be dismissed as the consumer's misunderstanding.

Why would an oil company care, or spend money to certify something that is not in their target market.

They don't care to spend the money. That is why they have never submitted it for JASO MA certification.
They already have a motorcycle specific line of oils under the Shell Ultra 4T line that is JASO MA certified, so they don't need to get the Rotella certified. However, by misleading people they can sell millions more litres/quarts of oil to people who have misinterpreted the labeling and believe that it does have the JASO MA certification that they are looking for. On this website alone I read over, and over, and over, that one of the reasons that people use Rotella T6 is because it is JASO MA certified. It is not, and it has never been as far back as 2013 that I know of. The number of motorcyclists on this website represents a minuscule portion of the numbers worldwide. If the same percentage of people worldwide buy Shell Rotella mistakenly believing that it is JASO MA certified as who do on this website, imagine how many extra gallons in sales that is every year worldwide.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Just checked a T4 jug..... initially you'd think it's not on there..... read on down in the fine print JASO is mentioned.

Mentioned as in it is a specification that Shell claims that it meets, same as the T6, or does it actually have JASO MA certification mark and approval number on it. If it doesn't, it is not JASO MA certified.

 

[Larry Fine]

This reminds me of when some home-theater equipment manufacturers claimed that their products would meet or exceed THX specifications, and didn't want to have to add the cost of certification to their selling prices.

See: https://www.thx.com/

 

[Igofar]

Or as a shell employee would explain…”it’s not certified, however, it would probably pass the test” etc.

 

[Igofar]

The valvoline company is much more honest in my opinion.
While they have their own motorcycle specific oils, they don’t just shut down and tell you only those will work etc.
The guy I talked to for several minutes, took the time to look and check the spec sheets on all the oils I asked about and provided me with comparisons.
He said while the premium blue one solution, was NOT their MC specific product, he went over a lot of data and said it would be a very good HD oil that had NOTHING in it that would cause problems with a wet clutch etc.
It is also rated for gas engines etc.
The UOA’s are well above several MC oils I’ve used.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Just checked a T4 jug..... initially you'd think it's not on there..... read on down in the fine print JASO is mentioned.

Rotella T4 does not have JASO MA certification either. It is the same marketing scenario as with the Rotella T6. Shell lists JASO MA as one of the specifications that it meets, but they have no certification to support that claim.

There currently is no Shell Rotella engine oil that is JASO MA certified.

 

[Upt' North]

I was using Delco Diesel oil from Costco in a Suzuki Burgman 400 for years. I'd read from forum participants that Shell Rotella was good, but this was cheap, in the right viscosity and the bike didn't have a clutch to worry about.

It's been many years now, but I spent an afternoon perusing "Bob is the Oil Guy's" forum. In the end, I realized a couple things.

1. Experts on the Bob is the Oil Guy's forum are as much of experts on oil as any of us. They talk a good line, but few if any have ever run their engines for 200,000 miles and torn the engine down to see if the oil they used caused damage or not. But they know how to sound like experts.
2. Something they said did make sense. Commercial diesel owners aren't influenced by fancy advertising on the outside of oil containers. Taking a big diesel rig down for an oil change costs them a lot of money, whether it is a diesel engine on a ferry, on a bull dozer on a job site, or on a long haul Kenilworth. So they stick with what they know works. Shell Rotella is one of those oils. Kenilworth and other semi trucks will sometimes go 30-50K between oil changes. Granted they use special filters, but they again, stick with what they know works. Show me a car oil that survives that kind of abuse. Or a "motorcycle" oil.

We tend to baby our motorcycles like they are something that needs to be pampered. I was traveling through Wyoming and came across a BMW GS owner who pulled into a MacDonald's at the same time. He was on the phone immediately trying to find a certified BMW mechanic to change his oil because it was due and couldn't go on till he found one. That's dumb unless you're going around the world. Change it before you go, or when you get home.

What's the difference between "diesel" oil, "car" oil and "motorcycle" oil? Car oil may have friction modifiers that could mess up the clutch. I've heard that...not sure how bad it really can get. Diesel oil has great shear strength and has strong cleaning additives. Motorcycle oil has a JASO certification label on it and says "motorcycle". The last, allows them to double the price per quart you're charged. But hey...remember your bike is so fragile, you can't take a chance with it. Shell Rotella also has the JASO designation...but doesn't say "motorcycle", so it is fairly inexpensive...especially compared to "motorcycle" oils. But then again, it has great shear strength and strong cleaning additives. That can't be good for a motorcycle engine.

Plus, it says "diesel", not "motorcycle" on the container. Can't be good.

I'm not an expert, despite posting on the Internet. But I know what has worked for years on my bikes. And I know what most motorcycle owners recommend, and for good reasons.

I just saw something on YouTube where someone was comparing the various Shell Rotella oils. If I remember right, the T5 Synthetic Blend has a high amount of molybdenum. That might be what the owners with clutch slipping were using that Igofar saw. But the T4 and T6 had virtually none.

Chris

I don't disagree with what you've said fella, but you missed one point, a fairly important point. So for "what's the difference", you might want to include it's gearbox oil too in the case of motorcycles. Not all but most and certainly where it matters, ST's.
I'm pretty sure no company that makes engine oil for any vehicle without a unit gearbox considers the requirements of the gearbox or for that matter the wet clutch. Why would they?
Upt'North.

 

[Roger]

I use a 10W40/15W40 - whichever is cheaper - from a well known Auto store. It states '...suitable for petrol/diesel...' and 'ACEA A3 B3' ...and it works just fine. More important - the container is shaped to pour better than any other brand.

 

[playfair]

Long-term data is tough to differentiate as to whether one oil/filter/change interval is "truly better" than another.
And we don't always follow the specs, example being T6, which isn't even the recommended weight.
Everyone knows best. Then again, 73% of drivers believe they are above average! lol
How can it be proven? These machines are old enough that it should be easy!
I'll accept whatever those do with over 100,000 miles, no oil burning/engine issues, and have never needed to adjust valves!

 

[Rev383]

Running full Syn in everything. Mobil 1 or Castrol. Do not use energy-conserving marked oils, they have friction modifiers that are not compatible with wet clutches. Fortunately, they are different weights than the oils we use in our bikes. Check out: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/#motorcycles-boating-small-engine-aviation-powe.104

 

[PmodelinUS]

Honestly I have always used 2 motor oils in my Honda's and this goes back to the early 80's. Castrol and or Royal Purple. Since I change my oil every 3000 or so miles I go with the less expensive Castrol these days. The Royal Purple I ran in my CR 125 for racing. Never suffered and oil related part failure.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Long-term data is tough to differentiate as to whether one oil/filter/change interval is "truly better" than another.
And we don't always follow the specs, example being T6, which isn't even the recommended weight.
Everyone knows best. Then again, 73% of drivers believe they are above average! lol
How can it be proven? These machines are old enough that it should be easy!
I'll accept whatever those do with over 100,000 miles, no oil burning/engine issues, and have never needed to adjust valves!

That would be me - 100,000+ on three ST1100s and they have been using T6 Rotella.
No oil needed until change time.
Valves were in spec at 100,000 mile check up.

 

[Igofar]

Long-term data is tough to differentiate as to whether one oil/filter/change interval is "truly better" than another.
And we don't always follow the specs, example being T6, which isn't even the recommended weight.
Everyone knows best. Then again, 73% of drivers believe they are above average! lol
How can it be proven? These machines are old enough that it should be easy!
I'll accept whatever those do with over 100,000 miles, no oil burning/engine issues, and have never needed to adjust valves!

My 07 has over 100,000 miles and it’s never needed ANY valve adjustments.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Do not use energy-conserving marked oils, they have friction modifiers that are not compatible with wet clutches.

The message that I am attempting to convey is that this no longer has any relevance, and can no longer be relied upon as the sole indicator that an oil is suitable for wet clutch operation. This all began changing as far back as 2007. I think that it started with the SL or SM rated oils where it was no longer required to indicate energy conserving/resource conserving on the labels of oils even if they did contain these friction modifiers. It was supposed to continue to evolve to where they would no longer be allowed to indicate energy conserving/resource conserving on the label at all. I have not kept following it so I don't know where they are now with the labeling standards however, for quite a while now not having energy conserving/resource conserving on the label is no longer a reliable means of indicating that these additives are not present.

Everyone is free to make their own choices. I am just trying to provide some reference.

 

[Rev383]

Thank you, I will update my research. It has been awhile since I looked at it.

 

[Al st1100]

Rotella T4 does not have JASO MA certification either. It is the same marketing scenario as with the Rotella T6. Shell lists JASO MA as one of the specifications that it meets, but they have no certification to support that claim.

There currently is no Shell Rotella engine oil that is JASO MA certified.

It meets standards just don't want to pay for the certification

 

[Andrew Shadow]

There is NO JASO MA certification listed on that label anywhere. Shell does not claim that they have JASO MA certification anywhere on that label.
What is on that label is the same marketing technique that I have been writing about. Misleading presentation to make people think that it has industry approvals that it does not have.

Shell states on that label that it Meets the performance requirements of: One of those that it claims is JASO MA/MA2.
However;
There is no JASO MA certification mark listed anywhere on that label, which is a legal requirement.
There is no JASO MA certification number listed anywhere on that label, which is also a legal requirement.
They don't list these things because they can not legally do so because they do not have JASO MA certification for this oil.

Understand that I am not accusing them of lying about this claim. I am not even stating that this oil is harmful to wet clutch operation. What I am stating is that we have no way of knowing if their claim is a lie or not. That is the point however, and even more inportant is the fact that we also have no way of knowing if what they claim is actually true.
I do know that this oil, and all of the Rotella oils, is not JASO MA certified. I know this because JASO states so.

Shell claims that they meet the JASO MA specification, but they have not submitted it to JASO to test this claim, so how do we know that this is so?
In so far as compliance with JASO MA specifications goes, the JASO MA certification mark remains the only assurance that an oil meets JASO MA specifications, anything less is hope, wish, or conjecture.

 

[dduelin]

Mentioned as in it is a specification that Shell claims that it meets, same as the T6, or does it actually have JASO MA certification mark and approval number on it. If it doesn't, it is not JASO MA certified.

In addition T4 and T6 no longer carry API certification for gas engine use. I don't get it that people don't even bother to read their owners manual for the most basic oil information - API service, viscosity, and compatibility with wet clutch use. Shell T4 and T6 on the shelf today meets only one of the three requirements. They used to meet two or even three but oil formulations change every so often. Today's oils are not the oils of just 5 years ago much less 10 years ago. Just because the name is the same and it's been used for years starting years ago doesn't mean the same outcome in the next few years.

 

[Al st1100]

There is NO JASO MA certification listed on that label anywhere. Shell does not claim that they have JASO MA certification anywhere on that label.
What is on that label is the same marketing technique that I have been writing about. Misleading presentation to make people think that it has industry approvals that it does not have.

Shell states on that label that it Meets the performance requirements of: One of those that it claims is JASO MA/MA2.
However;
There is no JASO MA certification mark listed anywhere on that label, which is a legal requirement.
There is no JASO MA certification number listed anywhere on that label, which is also a legal requirement.
They don't list these things because they can not legally do so because they do not have JASO MA certification for this oil.

Understand that I am not accusing them of lying about this claim. I am not even stating that this oil is harmful to wet clutch operation. What I am stating is that we have no way of knowing if their claim is a lie or not. That is the point however, and even more inportant is the fact that we also have no way of knowing if what they claim is actually true.
I do know that this oil, and all of the Rotella oils, is not JASO MA certified. I know this because JASO states so.

Shell claims that they meet the JASO MA specification, but they have not submitted it to JASO to test this claim, so how do we know that this is so?
In so far as compliance with JASO MA specifications goes, the JASO MA certification mark remains the only assurance that an oil meets JASO MA specifications, anything less is hope, wish, or conjecture.

I'm sure JASO would have their legal team all over some oil company that put their name on oil that doesn't meet their standards. Ya think JASO is the only ones who can test oil? That they have some super secret way to test oil. Misleading would be fraud and I'm sure Shell would know this.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

It meets standards just don't want to pay for the certification

Sorry Al, I forgot to hit the post button.

Shell has several oils that are JASO MA certified, just not the Rotella line. It is not a big expense for them, so I don't buy that argument, especially since they already do it for many of their other oils.

One of the prerequisites to submitting an oil for JASO certification is that the oil must be one of several API S service ratings. This T4 oil does not state that it meets any API S service rating. This alone disqualifies this oil, and means that it can not even be submitted to JASO for certification. This is probably more likely the reason why they have never submitted it.

I'm sure JASO would have their legal team all over some oil company that put their name on oil that doesn't meet their standards. Ya think JASO is the only ones who can test oil?

That is what I have been trying to explain. They are playing with words- its marketing.
They are not falsely claiming JASO MA certification. They are not falsely displaying any JASO MA certification mark. They are not falsely displaying any JASO MA approval number. They have not infringed upon any JASO copyright.
They are stating their opinion. JASO can complain all they want, but their copyright certification and labeling has not been infringed upon.