Are BMW's Overrated ?

[theop]

Overrated?

You bet!

I am selling my GS1200 for a Pan.... had enough of expensive hourly rates, the queues in the UK to get them serviced (2-3 weeks wait for booking, so if something is seriously wrong, you are looking at a month on the train), the shoddy cheapskate warranties, the actual mediocre quality of current bikes vs their ancestry.

From the mainstream makers: the japanese 4, BMW, Harley, Triumph, Ducati and referring to assembly, quality of finish (not design) and durability I reckon BMW are dead last on that group along with HD (sorry American chaps Harleys are horribly made bikes) and Suzuki, the latter of which have an excuse as one could get 3 Bandits for 1 GS here in the UK.

Triumph used to be sh*te, they are now def better than BM. Ducati used to occupy the last spot for decades, they are now in durability and product finish closer to the top and miles ahead of BM.

Even KTM make better quality bikes than BMW I reckon....

 

[TigerRider]

Overrated?

You bet!

I am selling my GS1200 for a Pan.... had enough of expensive hourly rates, the queues in the UK to get them serviced (2-3 weeks wait for booking, so if something is seriously wrong, you are looking at a month on the train), the shoddy cheapskate warranties, the actual mediocre quality of current bikes vs their ancestry.

From the mainstream makers: the japanese 4, BMW, Harley, Triumph, Ducati and referring to assembly, quality of finish (not design) and durability I reckon BMW are dead last on that group along with HD (sorry American chaps Harleys are horribly made bikes) and Suzuki, the latter of which have an excuse as one could get 3 Bandits for 1 GS here in the UK.

Triumph used to be sh*te, they are now def better than BM. Ducati used to occupy the last spot for decades, they are now in durability and product finish closer to the top and miles ahead of BM.

Even KTM make better quality bikes than BMW I reckon....

Sorry to hear you haven't had a great experience with your Beemer. I haven't had mine long enough to really give it any kind of grade yet. I've only ridden it about 600 miles this year, but so far, so good. I may feel differently when I have to pay the bills for tires, 12,000 mile service, and all the extras I'm adding next spring, but at least I'm prepared for a rather large bill for all of it. Then I'll have a starting point for future service.

 

[S2000-Dave]

theop, you think Harleys are crap now, you should have seen them when AMF owned them back in the 80's, they were total SH##, too many problems to list!

 

[theop]

Sorry to hear you haven't had a great experience with your Beemer. I haven't had mine long enough to really give it any kind of grade yet. I've only ridden it about 600 miles this year, but so far, so good. I may feel differently when I have to pay the bills for tires, 12,000 mile service, and all the extras I'm adding next spring, but at least I'm prepared for a rather large bill for all of it. Then I'll have a starting point for future service.

it was and is a lovely bike , don't get me wrong... Great to ride, stylish, comfortable, fantastic on tour and in town. Had it for over 3 years, pretty much a record on any bike I ve owned, and I didn't mean to sound that negative or pessimistic.

The BMW flaws are dependent on geography too. Wrt the aftersales and servicing, the problem in the UK is that BMW rose from bottom to top in market share (GS12 is the UK's - and Europe's- most popular bike over 1000cc) very quickly (coincidentally with Ewan and Charlie's trips) over the last few years. So, money aside (BMW and prime dealer servicing has always been expensive in the UK whether a car or a bike) I believe the franchise over here did not have enough time to adjust to the population of machines needing attention. This is compiled by the fact the machines themselves have proven to be more sensitive and flimsy than their historic average.

Overall, I am sure you will enjoy your bike regardless and I wish you won't have to face the common issues like fuel pumps ($80), final drives ($1500) and the 2 common oil leaks that demand 10 hour dismantling for a $5 rubber seal to be changed. Fact is most bikes are relatively trouble free. But having a 1% bad eggs in your basket (Honda) to 15% (bmw) makes for a massive difference for that unlucky minority.

One thing to do if you haven't done already, join the GSER club. Think its primarily UK based, but will be v useful.

 

[theop]

theop, you think Harleys are crap now, you should have seen them when AMF owned them back in the 80's, they were total SH##, too many problems to list!

again, not too negative. Actually I love Harleys and if my wallet could afford a bigger house with a bigger garage here in London, I would get a HD too... I just don't think they are made with an "all weather/everyday" profile in mind...

In california perhaps.... But here in the UK .. it just rains too often, roads are pretty rough and full of salt for 4-6 weeks every year...

Oh, and thugs love them too, which menas if you leave it unlocked, it will pretty much go on the day...

 

[TigerRider]

it was and is a lovely bike , don't get me wrong... Great to ride, stylish, comfortable, fantastic on tour and in town. Had it for over 3 years, pretty much a record on any bike I ve owned, and I didn't mean to sound that negative or pessimistic.

The BMW flaws are dependent on geography too. Wrt the aftersales and servicing, the problem in the UK is that BMW rose from bottom to top in market share (GS12 is the UK's - and Europe's- most popular bike over 1000cc) very quickly (coincidentally with Ewan and Charlie's trips) over the last few years. So, money aside (BMW and prime dealer servicing has always been expensive in the UK whether a car or a bike) I believe the franchise over here did not have enough time to adjust to the population of machines needing attention. This is compiled by the fact the machines themselves have proven to be more sensitive and flimsy than their historic average.

Overall, I am sure you will enjoy your bike regardless and I wish you won't have to face the common issues like fuel pumps ($80), final drives ($1500) and the 2 common oil leaks that demand 10 hour dismantling for a $5 rubber seal to be changed. Fact is most bikes are relatively trouble free. But having a 1% bad eggs in your basket (Honda) to 15% (bmw) makes for a massive difference for that unlucky minority.

One thing to do if you haven't done already, join the GSER club. Think its primarily UK based, but will be v useful.

Hopefully my Boxer will give me many long years of worry free riding. Since it only has about 11,000 miles on it now, I expect that the next 30-40 thousand should be fine. From what I've heard, that's when the problems start coming up, around 50,000, if they show up at all. By that time I may have moved up to the 1200RT, or whatever else is out there at the time. But I'm not anticipating any problems with my 04 RT.

I also wish there were more BMW dealers over here, too. We only have 3 in Michigan, but one is only 50 miles away from me in Grand Rapids. I guess if they start selling more bikes, they'll open more dealerships.

 

[hojo in sc]

Perhaps bad timing or just bad luck, my ST is in the shop and has been there, much longer than I would have expected. I have a great wrench that I've known for years and trust very much and will continue to support him. That being said, he had to call mother honda tech support and they had heard of an unusual problem and guided him on the parts needed to fix the problem. Hopefully my Honda will be back on the road soon, trouble free, in the mean time I'm happily driving my BMW.

 

[IronRey]

My main bike is a 1200 GS Adventure and honestly I consider this the pinnacle in S/T (flame away) and is hands and feet above my ST (a fine bike in its own right, but hard to seriously consider it a sport tourer with its short comings).

It's a 2008 with 47K on the odometer, sure my dealer is about 120 miles away (there is one closer, but they suck) but the service at Gina's in Iowa City cannot be beat. What make the GSA (and Beemers in general IMHO) so much better; Paralever/Telelever, real front brakes with power and ABS, ESA, traction control (don't roll your eyes until you drive it in heavy rain and snow), riding position, performance (even with 20 less HP, it will leave an ST in the dust), real turn signal switches (yes there are three, but at least they don't have the 70's reject small switch W/O self cancellation), hand grip warmers, reliability (OK, maybe a wash with the Honda's, but all of my Beemers have been very dependable), high output alternator, yada, yada, yada.

What would I change? The horn is a joke, but I replaced mine with a Strebal (sp?), headlights won't even attract bugs so I converted mine to HID.

Again, the ST has it's place, but with the heat issues and lack of refinement (the sucker is LOUD), and a whole slew of other issues I cannot recommend it.

 

[drrod]

Interesting comment regarding the abilty of the GS to leave the ST in the dust. Perhaps it will in certain road conditions (short of dirt/gravel I don't know what that would be). I have ridden a GS1200 for about 5,000 kms on roads in Europe and NA and have travelled with a friend (excellent rider) who has a GS. I found the GS (when I rode it) to labor a bit with average speeds approaching triple digits and struggled to keep up with the ST in the twisties. And fuel mileage.....well lets just say that we had to stop for fuel for the GS when the ST still had over half a tank left. So, the GS may be a better sport tourer than the ST in your hands and on the roads your ride, but, in my experience (limited I admit), I would not agree. I guess it may depend a lot on your definition of sport and touring. The GS is a great bike and I may own one in the future but I would not replace my ST with one,thinking that it would be a better, by my definition, sport tourer. YMMV.
Rod

 

[IronRey]

Interesting comment regarding the abilty of the GS to leave the ST in the dust. Perhaps it will in certain road conditions (short of dirt/gravel I don't know what that would be). I have ridden a GS1200 for about 5,000 kms on roads in Europe and NA and have travelled with a friend (excellent rider) who has a GS. I found the GS (when I rode it) to labor a bit with average speeds approaching triple digits and struggled to keep up with the ST in the twisties. And fuel mileage.....well lets just say that we had to stop for fuel for the GS when the ST still had over half a tank left. So, the GS may be a better sport tourer than the ST in your hands and on the roads your ride, but, in my experience (limited I admit), I would not agree. I guess it may depend a lot on your definition of sport and touring. The GS is a great bike and I may own one in the future but I would not replace my ST with one,thinking that it would be a better, by my definition, sport tourer. YMMV.
Rod

Fair enough, I will admit that my time on the ST has been limited compared to my time on the GSA and it is also a fair statement to say I know my GS well enough to get the most out of it...But I surprise many a sport bike on the twisties and since I have the Adventure with the 8.5 gallon tank, I, like you, stop when I want, not when I have to.

Ryan

 

[Bones]

Why make something simple when you can make it complicated? I've heard many BMW riders (Harley riders, too) try to explain why three controls make more sense than one to operate turn signals and no one's come close to explaining it to me. By the way, it's a great topic to throw out around a campfire if the conversation reaches a lull.

Seems even BMW has seen the light, as it has begun using a one switch design (2010 K bikes, for example). From what I've read in MCN and online, the new design works as you'd expect -- simple and effective -- though failure rates have been high, perhaps due to "lifetime" turn signal fluid.

 

[IronRey]

Why make something simple when you can make it complicated? I've heard many BMW riders (Harley riders, too) try to explain why three controls make more sense than one to operate turn signals and no one's come close to explaining it to me. By the way, it's a great topic to throw out around a campfire if the conversation reaches a lull.

Seems even BMW has seen the light, as it has begun using a one switch design (2010 K bikes, for example). From what I've read in MCN and online, the new design works as you'd expect -- simple and effective -- though failure rates have been high, perhaps due to "lifetime" turn signal fluid.

I respectfully disagree Bones, once you are used to the three switch signals, you wonder why everyone else isn't doing it, it just seems kind of normal.

 

[Chris Parker]

Why make something simple when you can make it complicated? I've heard many BMW riders (Harley riders, too) try to explain why three controls make more sense than one to operate turn signals and no one's come close to explaining it to me. By the way, it's a great topic to throw out around a campfire if the conversation reaches a lull.

Seems even BMW has seen the light, as it has begun using a one switch design (2010 K bikes, for example). From what I've read in MCN and online, the new design works as you'd expect -- simple and effective -- though failure rates have been high, perhaps due to "lifetime" turn signal fluid.

I know that this has come up before with me, but Bones, I am telling you the God's Honest Truth... BMW has taken a step backward with the new Japanese Style Turn Signals from an ergonomic standpoint. I have had five bikes in my riding career... two Hondas and three BMWs... the turn signals on the BMWs ARE intuitive and much easier to use than any of the Hondas... you really can't comment on them unless you have to use them day in and day out... Once you do, I promise you that you will "get it." Needless to say I was rather disappointed that BMW Motorrad succumbed to the way the rest of everyone doing it... not because it was a superior way, but I surmise that they got tired of going against the flow and hearing every other moto-journalist gripe about them. You'd be surprised about the number of current BMW riders who are complaining about the change (some even going overboard with comments of... "well, I won't be upgrading to the new RT anytime soon... keeping the current one a little longer due to the crappy turn signals...)

 

[Charlie]

You'd be surprised about the number of current BMW riders who are complaining about the change (some even going overboard with comments of... "well, I won't be upgrading to the new RT anytime soon... keeping the current one a little longer due to the crappy turn signals...)

I would be squarely in that camp. I don't like what they've done with the new 1300s, so any impulse to upgrade my RT to the latest model year has been squashed. I bought a set of wheels for the old RT so I can ride it until the wheels fall off ... mount the spare set on, and ride it some more.

 

[dduelin]

With the reported failure rate of the new switchgear the Motorrad is probably regretting the change. I think switches are what you are used to. My BMW has the standard type the BMW has returned to. I am used to them and they work fine. What's the fuss?

What I am wondering is why BMW can't build a boxer that doesn't use oil. After all, they have had 86 years to refine the flat twin but peruse the forums and see how common this is. I traveled to the MOA int'l rally this year with a pair of GS's and they both had to add oil every other morning. Oil checking and deciding whether to top off or not is part of their morning routine. It is nearly 2010 guys, there are bikes out there that go an entire oil change interval without using oil.

 

[Bones]

I appreciate the replies, although that's two more folks who haven't convinced me (just one, actually, because Chris and I have banged this topic around before). The Beemers and Hogs I've ridden haven't convinced me, either. Guess we'll continue to respectfully disagree about turn signal switches...or switch, preferably.

EDIT: For grins, giggles and a fresh perspective, I asked someone who does not ride motorcycles this question: "If you were designing a turn signal switch for a motorcycle, would you prefer one switch for the left thumb that controls left turn, right turn, and cancel, or one switch for the left thumb for left turn, one switch for the right thumb for right turn with a separate thumb switch to cancel?" (I held up my arms as if I were riding the bike and indicated the thumb actions required to activate the various switches.)

The person's response was this: "I wouldn't to it either way. I'd have one switch for each thumb, push it to turn it on and push it again to cancel it. Actually, either switch would cancel either signal."

Thoughts? :cf1:

 

[IronRey]

With the reported failure rate of the new switchgear the Motorrad is probably regretting the change. I think switches are what you are used to. My BMW has the standard type the BMW has returned to. I am used to them and they work fine. What's the fuss?

What I am wondering is why BMW can't build a boxer that doesn't use oil. After all, they have had 86 years to refine the flat twin but peruse the forums and see how common this is. I traveled to the MOA int'l rally this year with a pair of GS's and they both had to add oil every other morning. Oil checking and deciding whether to top off or not is part of their morning routine. It is nearly 2010 guys, there are bikes out there that go an entire oil change interval without using oil.

When I picked up my GSA from the dealer, she said "Ride it like you stole it". I did and have been ever since and my bike has never used a drop of oil, not even during break in.

 

[dduelin]

When I picked up my GSA from the dealer, she said "Ride it like you stole it". I did and have been ever since and my bike has never used a drop of oil, not even during break in.

That is good for you, but as you know it isn't unusual for R1200's to use oil for a while. The PW seems to be for 15-20,000 miles. In the day of the /7's it was thought that because the bikes were so expensive many owners, mindful of the price of their new motorcycle, would not ride it hard enough to seat the rings and the bikes would start life as oil burners. If the owner complained about it BMW techs were instructed to take the bike out and run the snot out of it (or so the legend goes) and give it back - all fixed. So here we are 30 years later and they still burn oil.

 

[Hank-FLPI]

This post is prefaced with the statement "there is no perfect motorcycle."

My good friend's 2009 GSA has had multiple electrical problems. The fuel gauge still does not work and BMW cannot repair it. The factory rep said BMW does not know what causes the problem and there is a huge number of BMW's with the same issue. BMW did offer to replace his 2009 with a 2010, but he has lots of $$$ in the farkle on his current bike. The rep also stated the 2010 might also have the same problem. I strongly suspect Honda would not make the same replacement offer.

Now the real question is why does my 1982 V45 have a well designed, self-cancelling turn signal switch and my has a not well designed, not self-cancelling turn signal switch? :capwin:

 

[Dinkie Diesel]

With the reported failure rate of the new switchgear the Motorrad is probably regretting the change. I think switches are what you are used to. My BMW has the standard type the BMW has returned to. I am used to them and they work fine. What's the fuss?

What I am wondering is why BMW can't build a boxer that doesn't use oil. After all, they have had 86 years to refine the flat twin but peruse the forums and see how common this is. I traveled to the MOA int'l rally this year with a pair of GS's and they both had to add oil every other morning. Oil checking and deciding whether to top off or not is part of their morning routine. It is nearly 2010 guys, there are bikes out there that go an entire oil change interval without using oil.

Seems like I remember some discussion (many years ago and not on this forum) about horizontal engines having a propensity to use oil. Not sure of the reason. Perhaps windage (oil flying around in the crankcase) is hard to deal with on a horizontal cylinder. I think it was one of the old Goldwings that use to get a drip or two past the rings while it was parked on the sidestand and smoke after starting. Do BMWs do this?